Some of these have been covered before. I'll dig out some threads and link in a bit later. Edit: Earlier print vs PDF thread, Electronic Versions, Sales figures tag

Room for publishers? Absolutely. If you make a game worth playing people will buy it.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I'm finding this post by Fred Hicks (man behind Evil Hat publishing that puts out Spirit of the Century) completely awe inspiring at the moment, and completly in tune with way that my gut was telling me to go with my "its-fun-not-a-business" d101-games stuff

How to get started publishing your RPG, 2007 edition

Regards

;O)Newt
D101games -An Imaginary Company

The major thing to bear in mind I think is not to expect to become another Mongoose. There's plenty of room for more publishers, in fact the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned, but there's not a huge amount of room for large profits if you don't have a lot of cash to throw at the project to begin with, and even then there are much, much smarter investments.

Approached as a hobby, you can turn enough of a profit to make a little pocket money from time to time and, who knows, in time it might grow into something more. As a business, I'm not so sure. Maybe if you got in on the ground floor of the next big thing. Fourth Ed springs to mind, but after what happened with third ed the first time around I expect that particular forum to be swarming with companies the second it's available, some of whom will have a head start thanks to gaining preview copies, and many of whom will be looking to build on an existing reputation earned through 3.5 ed materials.

Now, there's no question that you are more likely to make money selling via print if you approach it in the correct manner. I think sound advice has already been given on that front so I won't compound it. I don't think there's any harm in exploiting the PDF market as well though, it's just a very different formula required for success.

The part I personally have trouble with is the advertising. I'm lousy at it.

Ash

I'm no expert on the subject, but basically it comes down to:

Money and Effort vs Fun and Enjoyment

Publishing a game takes a lot of Effort and a little bit of Money.

It's Fun though.

If you're lucky you'll make beer money. If you're thinking of publishing a game to make money, you're better off taking a paper round or something. I think that most people here have an objective of breaking even and paying for trips to Cons and stuff like that. Nobody here is likely to retire from their day job and buy a mansion with the money they make from their games.

If you're looking to publish a game, the best reason to do it is because you want that game to exist and you've already tried everything else on the market and nothing else really does that whateveritis that you want this game to do. If there are enough other people who feel the same way, you've got an audience and they convert into customers. If your game is basically something which could be run using D&D or Gurps or is basically just a variation of Vampire or Exalted, I think you'll find that audience much smaller because people are less likely to invest time and energy in a small press game when a lovely glossy book from a big name publisher delivers (or at least promises to) a similar experience.

While I don't really know you that well Gaz, I know you enough from other forums to know that you're pretty up on what's about and smart enough to know if you're pointlessly re-inventing the wheel.

Most people prefer Dead Tree to PDF. Just a fact of life. But Dead Tree is easy to do these days because of PoD services like Lulu, so there's pretty much nothing stopping you making a Dead Tree version available these days.

I like Rich's comment...

If you're looking to publish a game, the best reason to do it is because you want that game to exist and you've already tried everything else on the market and nothing else really does that whateveritis that you want this game to do.

When you say, is there room out there for another publisher, it's like saying: is there room out there for another book? Sure there is, but to be successful, you've got to stand out.

My suspicion of PDFs has grown, since someone forwarded me a copy of PTA (unsolicited). Having read it, I don't think I'll buy it. But, had I not read it, I might have bought it to see what it was like. You know?

Graham

...I think I almost completely disagree. But then he's much more successful than I am.

Graham

A nice thing about the RPG market is how open it is. Any product has the opportunity to do well (relative to the market). Though whether it actually does can be a bit of a lottery, depending on the elusive "buzz".

Like anything else, publishing the things is a skill (or set of) that develops over time. Each release will be a bit more polished than the last (if, of course, you do multiple releases).

Somewhat annoyingly, crap still sells. By which i mean products with dodgy content or thrown together with minimal checking or awful presentation. Gamers, in the end, are not that discerning a bunch - and ideas are probably the most important bit. Though personally I intend to snarl at every typo for the rest of my life.

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

"Graham? What is your position Graham? ... Yeah, that's right." ;)

(In-joke folks, move along.)

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

but to add to what he said. There's a formula to a successful smallpress game release. The smallpress method (as championed on the Forge and elsewhere), works. There's so much advice out there on how to do this well and economically, that you really have to not do your research to fail. Sure, you won't make cash enough to retire on, but nobody should lose money on an RPG these days.

These are the key things, and people can fall down on any one of them:

1. Write a compelling game that plays well
2. Playtest the fuck out of it. Analyse those playtests with effective tools.
3. Revise and clarify based on feedback.
4. Publish.
5. Play your game. Post about that play. Get others to do the same.

Through all the points there's a thread of "engage with the community", talking with other gamers helps your game! Lots of people seem to have a real problem with that (posting hollow, snide or self serving comments in fora does not equal engaging, sorry).

-Matt

Realms Publishing

...some good stuff here guys.

Random thoughts:

Don't worry I've heard the aphorism "How do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry" plenty of times and A to the K's favourite "You'll sell literally dozens of copies" too. I'm not under illusions about making it "big" or giving up the day job. Its all about the Name in Lights thing. Might be a name in lights getting mud thrown at it, but still...

I prefer Dead Tree myself, although I'll often buy both. Cool name for a game though "Dead Tree"... :)

A free / exclusive / reduced price pdf with purchase of the book would be an idea, so people can cut and paste bits for players / personal use. I'm aware of the risk of electronic format, but then you can download the entire WW back catalogue in searchable pdf format if you check P2P websites, so thinking you're immune to people nicking your stuff is not entirely true. Clearly, people wanting to nick your game and distribute it free is far less likely for a small time publication.

My biggest um and ah at the minute is whether to do it "properly", from scratch - or get a licence for Savage say - in which case I can do the source book for an existing game thing and not sweat the rules, with the added bonus of getting sales purely because its got someone else's logo on the front. But then I'd have to pay cash money for a licence, which would come out of my dozens of sales...

Or there's the collaborative effort I started having a look at, but everyone involved has cooled on that at the moment (including me!).

I'm a bit shy about voicing my opinions, so I'm not sure I could shout about a new game enough... [/irony]

Running at Con's is not a problem, nor is getting a t-shirt printed up and chatting to the masses about it. I'm thinking of running a con in early 2009. I'll be looking to the CE posse to come along and sell their games to unsuspecting delegates.

Who on earth would want to be like Mongoose? Don't get me started...

You all must have a Horror Story. An event or thing you did or experienced that made you think "I'm never doing that again". Anyone feel like sharing in a group therapy fashion about getting burned?

Don't be shy.

Gaz

I'm heading out to cycle in the sunshine in a moment, but I will say that: yes, I think that I have a pretty good games publishing horror story. Which, I think, is quite instructive.

However, I'll post about it in another thread when I get back in this afternoon.*

Cheers
Malc

*I know it's night time for you guys.

Contested Ground Studios