We've used Avalon Innovations for all of our printing so far and the fact that we haven't felt the need to look elsewhere should tell you something. Their prices are cheap (AFAIK - we haven't really done as much cost comparison as we probably should), their print quality is very high. As with many printers, their customer service is sometimes a little lacking - Lance, our rep (and possibly the only rep) is really friendly and helpful, but often infuriatingly unresponsive.

Hi Andy,

Given your experience with Avalon, would you say that it was best to contact them by phone rather than email? And would you be willing to discuss printing costs with them in order to form a comparison with other printers?

For example, our 200 unit print run of Cold City (first printing) with RPI cost us in the region of $950, including shipping to IPR and transatlantic shipping to us here in Scotland.

Our second print run with RapidPOD (160 units) cost us $400 (including shipping). However, the quality was not quite as high as RPI and the transatlantic shipment took an age to arrive here.

For future print runs of other books, we're getting quotes from a variety of other sources, such as Publishers Graphics and Fidlar Doubleday, both of whom seem very competitive at the moment (particularly the former). Both of these will also do matte cover coatings and inside cover printing, which is something we're planning on utilisig for a couple of titles (Everlasting Empire being one example).

Cheers
Malcolm

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

It's hard to say about contacting them - it varies you see. I'd recommend phoning them in the first instance.

I'm always prepared to be open when it comes to costings. Dead of Night costs $4 a unit, FYI, and we typically order between 25 and 50 copies. I don't think the price changes with quantity though.

Shipping to Key20 is usually free, and shipping to IPR is about $10-20. We had about 100 books shipped over by overseas mail before christmas and that cost $70 and took 6 weeks, which was both more and longer than we'd hoped, but we'll live.

My experieces are fairly similar.

I used LSI for my UK run of Contenders, they were pretty expensive mainly due to high set up costs for the first copy. The books came out at about £3.30 each (including postage). The print quality was not great either. On the plus side, LSI's communications were excellent and their turnaround was very quick, about a fortnight I believe.

The next run was for Indy GenCon. I went with
white silver publishing aka Fastserv. Their prices were good, it came out at about $3.30 a book (but were shipped to the US). However, I had great difficulty getting the proofs - in fact they never made it to the UK. I eventually had to get a proof sent to my Mum in the states and she posted it to me. Thankfully I got my books in time for Indy GenCon. The print quality was good but the communications so-so (everything was done by email). I'll probaly use them again for Contenders.

Swansong has had even more difficulties printing - I wanted to use Lulu, but, to cut a long story short they screwed up and there is no way of telling whether their US printer can handle your book or not if you're based in the UK.

So I went with RapidPOD on Malc and Gregor's advice (how ironic). The gods of printing were smiling on me and Ken replied promptly by email and I got my books very quickly. He sent and charged me for twice as many books as I'd initially wanted but that was all good. The print quality was good and the books cost about $2.50 each (with shipping to the UK).

I've ordered another print run from them recently and have heard absolutely nothing, I need to chase him up...

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

I'm looking at using a new printer for the "2nd" run of Covenant, so info like this is really useful. Lulu is great for dipping a toe in the water, but once you reach a certain threshold of knowing you can shift product, it ceases to be as useful.

So far my main take away from this is that email is not a good form of communication for the printing industry. This is obviously especially an issue when working from UK to US. It does leave me wondering if I might end with the price being hiked by international calls to chase print runs... Any thoughts on this?

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I think the cost of an international call would be so negligible, in comparison to the cost of a book. Not that I'm entirely sure on the cost of international calls, but I'm fairly sure you can use skype at a fixed rate, or set your printer up on your BT phone as a friend or family.

So how did you find Lulu, Matt? Would you care to post your experience of them as a printer to this thread, for the sake of completeness?

Are you finding the square shape of your book causes printers problems, or is it no harder than a regular proportioned book?

For another viewpoint on Alphagraphics (formerly known as RPI, whom we used for the first printing of Cold City), Joshua Newman has been having some pretty bad experiences with them lately.

You can see his latest comments on his blog.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Lulu is a great place if you want to enter the publishing scene with minimal effort. It's designed so that you can produce a PDF (or even a word document), upload it and have a book ready to sell quickly. Since it has a built in store front, you can take credit cards and so on without any outlay yourself. There are additional options to get you into bookshop chains or ISBNs (these I haven't used).

It does hardback and softback books in varying sizes and bindings. If you just wanted to do an initial Ashcan version of a game at a good quality, it's probably ideal. Printing is pretty good, though occasionally the toner will be slightly faded where you were at the end of a particular batch. The trim seems to vary quite widely too, so I would advise it's not great for attempting full bleeds.

One thing to watch out for is the varying print locations based on delivery location. This means some books are from the Spanish printer, some UK printer and some USA. Generally the quality is in that order, worst to best. I've always been reasonably happy, but the Lulu support forums have a fair few people who have had bad experiences. I haven't really had any yet though.

The biggest disadvantage of Lulu is its cost per book. It's more expensive than the others by quite a margin, but you gain flexibility in stock (you don't have to keep any)... They take 20% of the cover from sales on their site (waived for personal print runs).

However, as I've noted elsewhere, if your main avenue of sales is outside the Lulu storefront, other printing options are probably better. A lot of their price is based on paying for their site services. To put some numbers on that, of 140 copies of Covenant sold so far, 76 by me at Cons, 3 on Lulu and the rest via IPR.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I've used Rapid POD and they're a heartbreaker.

They're cheap and friendly. In fact, alluringly cheap and Ken is very great to talk to. Did I mention that you'll have to talk to him? A lot?

OK, the good.

Print quality is great. Easily as good, if not better than a traditional printer. Really. Rapid POD's books make books from other printers look quite poor. They're covers are better than the Lulu one's I've seen. They're interior art really makes Lightning Source look embarrassing. Even better than RPI (RIP).

They've always fulfilled my orders. Completely. I paid for the books and I got the books. As Ken will cheerfully say, "If I haven't invoiced you then you won't get them. But if I have you will".

Beth at Rapid POD has been great with me all down the line. I can safely say that Beth picked up the ball when Ken dropped it and repeatedly fumbled it around for a while.

Now the bad.

Timeliness. Not a strong point. There have been times when they get you a book so damn fast, on the other hand my books from August took until the tail of November to reach me. Oh, they were printed in August but it wasn't until Beth found where Ken had put them in October that they got mailed to me. So they arrived at the same time as the second printing done in October.

Generally the stuff going stateside has been OK, once printed. The stuff coming to the UK has been left at the mercy of the postal service.

Trying to get Ken to send something speedily is, from experience, hit or miss, I'm afraid. You need to books in 4 weeks? Well, you might be like Joe and get them in a week, or like Malcolm and me and get them in 6 weeks, i.e. 2 too late.

Communication. By e-mail? Awful in some respects. You mail a speculative enquiry? I can almost guarantee you won't be responded too. Probably too busy printing books with established business. Bizarrely if you just upload the file and fill in the forms correctly there's more chance of the stuff getting done.

At other times the communication and attention to my needs has been excellent. Heartbreaking, see?

Now, the phone. I bought into the phoning Ken thing. It brings a false dawn I feel. When he's on the phone he's real personable and means what he says. It's just that I think he forgets, probably someone else phones him. And if he's on the phone to you, well, he's not printing my books, see?

So I'm inclined not to phone Ken any more. Beth mentioned the phone thing when we met up at GenCon and I think they'd prefer Ken working than chatting and all. So I'm thinking that it's better that if you call at all then keep it short to "Hey, I sent you an e-mail, I paid the invoice, now send me the tracking number as requested in my e-mail. Have a nice day."

Conclusion

If you fret or are nervous, and doubly so if you have a deadline then run away. Run far away. Ken will kill you with what might have been.

If you can live with the ups and downs that come with Rapid POD then you will get the best book quality possible, and at a fantastic price.

Don't try and measure the cost of transatlantic phone calls, count the grey hairs. If you don't mind them then I recommend them, with some caveats and reservations.

(Oh, and having read Josh's comments on RPI they are nowhere near as bad as that.)

God, it's terrible in that post. Apols. Late at night.

Yeah, like Malc says, Alphagraphics has choked bad. Jason Morningstar of Bully Pulpit games has had a pretty bad time and Brennan Taylor has given up on them, too.

Hi Joshua. Thanks for pitching in with your personal experience. Your ongoing commentary on the Alphagraphics situation has been very informative and without it, I for one would have continued to recommend RPI/Alphagraphics as a reliable, high quality print source.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

I've used Lulu a little bit now and Matt's comments sound about right. I got there because Lulu is RPGNow's print partner so you can integrate hardcopy availability into the site (though it's not clear whether the new OBS site will continue this - probably, but it's clearly not a major priority for them).

Once you get the hang of the Lulu automation for setting a book up, either it'll just work, in which case it's great, or there will be problems, in which case you might discover that the staff are mostly techies with lesser skills in customer service and communication. The help section of the site is very patchily useful - it can be hard to find basic info, and I've often spent a while hunting for something I've read before. Transparency re the different printer locations would be good too - they don't even tell you which one your order will come from.

But having physical books is nice. ;)

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

Not meaning to take us on too much of a tangent, but do you get many customers buying POD versions of your books on RPGNow? I only tried it once, about 3 or 4 years ago, and only sold 1!

I've been working on a project for about 6 months with Avalon - not continually, but 3 small batches working out the kinks in a new project.

At first, Lance was quite helpful, and responsive. However, I did figure out that if I wanted to talk to him, I would just have to keep calling and hope to catch him on the phone. I don't believe that he has ever returned a phone call, but he did reply to an email occasionally.

However, over time, his responsiveness has gone to zero. Over the last 3 weeks I have left voice messages, sent emails, and have not received a single response. Recently, I've called repeatedly and no one ever answers the phone.

Full disclosure: this was a kind of project that Avalon had never worked on before - perhaps he no longer has any interest in it anymore (I wouldn't mind if he didn't, but it would be nice if he would call me back and tell me) Also, Lance has never sent me a bill for any of the proofs. I offered to pay him, but he wanted to wait to bill the proofs with the final project.

Thanks for the feedback phetish. I think the big thing to come out of these threads is that things can change and we need to be constantly evaluating our suppliers.

Hi Phetish - I've had similar issues, and it really is infuriating. Usually he'll appear again with an excuse (i think he's in the reserves so sometimes vanishes for a week or two on training), but sometimes he won't. I find it unlikely that he'd simply drop your product, but he might well have forgotten about it. You've got it right though - keep phoning, don't rely on email.

This certainly seems to be a recurring problem doesn't it - lousy communications from printers.

Gregor,

I have a copy of Best Friends I bought at Conception. It says it's the 3rd printing. Is that enough info for you to tell me exactly where that was printed?

Andrew, ditto for DoN.

Malcolm, I have a copy of Cold City which I bought direct from your website when it was released last year. Where was that printed?

Matt, I got Covenant from you at Dragonmeet, I assume this is a Lulu print? It looks like the other Lulu books I have (ie, basically pretty good once you get over the fact that the pages aren't quite cut right).

I'm pretty sure my copy of Swansong from Dragonmeet is from RapidPOD, but where's the copy of Contenders I bought at the same time from?

Cheers guys!

Rich,

That will be a copy of Cold City from the first print run, which was done by RPI in Seattle (there's some info on them in the first post of the thread).

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Rich, yeah all Covenant print-runs so far have been Lulu. Yours is a UK-printed copy, which is notable for its wide trim. Largely that's my fault for trying to be clever and doing artwork that should reach the edges, but doesn't. It was better in the US prints.

I've recently got a quote from Publisher's Graphics (who I think Ron Edwards mentioned on a Forge thread as a reliable printer), for a new run with a less glossy cover. The quote is pretty reasonable at about $2 per book (from memory).

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Malcolm, the binding on the copy I have is pretty horrible. That is, all the pages are crinkley and the book makes a horrible noise when you try to open it. The pages aren't falling out or anything and it's not that I feel ripped off as a customer or anything like that, but as a physical onject it's kind of ugly. Which is a shame, because the layout and artwork and everything is so nice!

Is this common with RPI books, just that run of Cold City or is it just mine?

Matt, to be honest the book looks fine to me. I can see where you're coming from with the page bleed, but I think such a design would be a bit ambitious for me anyway (Rich =/= Graphic Design Talent).

Rich,

The print run we had from RPI was, in the main, of good quality. Certainly, the first print run copy I've been using since it was done hasn't exhibited any of these problems that you highlight. However, this kind of thing is good to know. We wouldn't be using RPI again for other reasons, but this helps to confirm that stance. I'd be more than happy to replace your book with a copy of the second print run.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

All three printings of Best Friends have been done in the USA by Rapid POD.

If you look at the marginal illustration on page 28 you'll see the high quality and detail of the printing.

I've been happy with the binding and paper stock too. The covers are also glossy and bright, and the pink is strong.

Gregor, I was thinking about that book in particular, because the print quality is really crisp. Also, as you say, the pink on the cover is pretty vibrant, which I like.

Malcolm, it's not bad enough to warrant a replacement, but I'll bring it along to CCow to show you what I mean. It's a bit hard to explain.

We're onto our 5th or 6th printing now, but they've all been done by Avalon and cost around $4 a book.

Did you buy your copy from me at Conception? If so that was the very latest printing, and is, IMHO, the best of the bunch so far. The quality of the art and cover has improved each time - my original copies look a lot shabbier by comparison.

Bit slow off the mark...

Rich, the copy of Contendersyou have (in fact all the copies sold in the UK to-date) is from LSI.

Also, to update on Rapid POD, the second run of Swansong (for IPR), was printed and sent off without a hitch.

As for white silver publishing - I'm still awaiting a run of Contenders from them. They werepaid for and should have shipped at the end of January.

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Well, we've realized that our communication has been one of our issues and it's something we've been working on to improve. For example, we're getting out and trying to make a grater appearance in the various forums around the industry.

Not to make an excuse, but true problem behind much of our lack of communication has been our never ending building project. To put things in perspective, it was suppose to be finished in 2005. So, we've been operating out of a building still being worked on, which has created many of it's own issues. But I'll spare you the rest of the horror stories of construction, the important fact is that it will be finished this week! Once again, the HVAC constractor was suppose to finish on Friday, but of course they didn't.

We've also brought Jason Valore, of Key 20, on board to help field some of the sales calls and billing help.

We also have revamped a few of our services, including new library quality double-fan adhesive hardcover book, and we are getting a new perfect binder in about two weeks (March 8th). The BQ-270 will increase our output to over 400 books an hour and give you a perfect binding equal to any book in the book store.

Thanks,

Lance Williams
Avalon Innovations
POD & SHort Run Digital Services
For the Gaming Industry
www.AvalonTeam.com
740-695-3530

Hi Lance - good to see you here, and thanks for posting to clarify things. I think it's a good thing for a printer to take an interest in what it's customers get up to and think! I like to think it fosters a better working relationship all round if everyone knows what is expected of the other party.

Would you be able to tell us a little more about the perfect binder? What does that mean to us small-press companies? Will we notice any difference?

Also, does your new hardcover binder mean that you will be able to offer POD hardcover books? What sort of price point does that involve?

Hi Andrew,

Thanks! I was hoping no one would mind if I jumped in with some comments. I know we're not perfect, but we try. We're a small company just start out too (well, starying in POD about a year and a half agao). When we have a problem we do what we can to find out what caused it and get it fixed, not blame someone else for it.

Our new perfect binder is a Standard Horizen BQ-270. Here's a link to the mfg's web site on it: BQ-270 What this binder does that will make a stronger, squarer and better binding is: (1) Milling the book block spine: this is an automated process where a saw blade mills off a small portion of the paper. This allows for better penatration of the glue into the book block, which creates a stronger bind. (2)Notching the book block spine: This is also done with a saw blade, which put a notch across the pages. This creates a deeper line for the glue to hold the pages together. (3)Side Glueing: A small strip of glue is applied to the first and last page of the book, which glues it to the hing of the cover, greatly reducing the chance of the first or last page to fall out. (4) Automatic Cover Feeding and Scoring: The binder automatically feed and score the covers as it's pulled in to be bound to the book block. There is a caliper on the binder that measures the book block thickness and this creates a perfect match. This allows for a much sqaurer spine. (5) Nipping: This is the process the folders the cover around the book block. The stronger the nipper, the better the binding and the more sqaure it is. (6) THe Return: With perfect binder how it returns the book while the glue is drying is very important. With the small rotary binders, you manually remove the book, so you either have to let the book sit there while the glue dries, or you run the risk of having a spine that is not sqaure. On some of the other automatic signle clamp binders, the book is automatically dropped down as soon as it is nipped. Which means the glue is not always dried and it falls down and slides, which again means the spine may not be square.

I feel that we have always had good quality bindings with the rotary binder that we have, but you should see a hugh improvement even over that. On the production side, it means we tought the book part less and spend less time on prep work. For example, the scoring of the covers used to be a manual process and took a long time to do. The roughing and notching process was pretty much manual before too. The binder also uses a slightly different type of glue, which will also create a stronger binding.

With the new hardcover service, we will be offering true hardcover books, not just perfect bound books with a hardcover. This will be more or a short run service, with a minimum run of 30 books. We could do smaller runs, but the price ends up going up enough that it is not affordable to think about it for retail sale. Now we could still do one-off's of a special book, or if you wanted a softcover book turned into a hardcover, or needed a hardcove rebound. Look at our wed site for a full description: Avalon Hardcover Web Page

We will also offer some different options for the hard covers, including the choice to have it oversewn instead of double-fan adhesive. And the option of having headbands put on the book.

As far as price points:

Hardcover Binding Prices

For books:
up to 8.5" x 11" in size
Up to 420 Pages
With Laminated Cover
Minimum Order: 30 Books

Quantities Per Volume Binding Cost
30-49 $9.62
50-99 $8.91
100-199 $8.13
200-399 $7.48

Please let me know if you have any other questions!

Lance Williams
Avalon Innovations
POD & SHort Run Digital Services
For the Gaming Industry
www.AvalonTeam.com