(God only knows what happened here - can someone delete this)

(Gah! I edited my previous post for a typo. It leapfrogged Gregors reply so I thought I had double posted. I deleted the post. Now no posts. My forum fu is weak. Very very weak...)

Neil

I would say that when you feel your contributing here, and you feel confident about saying "I'm a member here" then that's a good point to see what everyone else thinks.

There isn't a monk in a hood at the gate that says "Yer in", but you're right it's not as simple as just turning up and saying "here's my money".

My sincere hope is that you will feel a full member and want to be on a booth with Duty & Honour at some point, and I really hope that we can help you as a community to make that as good a game as possible.

*That I'm allowed to tell you about, as it's secret obviously. :-P

[Edited to stick it back in the correct order]

My recollections of that particular day are hazy at best, but I find it a bit off-putting being told that my attitude is poor with no justification. What precisely was it that gave you that impression? All I can remember of the interaction I had with you on the day was that I really wasn't interested in playing the game you were demoing at the time, despite several invitations to join in. If you took that as an insult then I'm sorry, but it really wasn't meant as one. I was only waiting for my friends at the time, and didn't want to get involved in the demo. Nothing against the game in particular, it just wasn't (and isn't) my kind of thing. I'm pretty sure I said as much on the day.

I would also like to state that it is very difficult to self-associate onesself as a member of any organisation that does not place any concrete requirements or methods by which membership can be obtained. All I've heard on the subject in the past is that 'if you hang around the forums long enough' which, frankly, isn't very helpful.

Now, I offered to buy out Graham's slot on the table because I thought it would help him out, as I've a lot of respect for him as a designer. I'm afraid I kind of assumed that the deal was merely that I'd be sending along a few games for representation, and wasn't actually expecting to be allowed to attend the stall in person. If my pitching in to help is not an option because I'm not a member, then that's no problem. You've got enough people going, I daresay you don't really need the extra money. But I really do think that you need to make some very solid definitions about what constitutes being a member. How can anyone know where and when a breach of etiquette will occur if no rules exist to govern such interactions, or said rules are open to vagueness?

I would like to get some kind of convention presence going and that's not easy when you're a one-man company with next to no budget. That's the main reason I found this site in the first place; I was looking for someone to share the costs of a stall at that very convention (which in the end I couldn't find, hence my only being there as an attendee). In fact I was recommended here by someone else (whose name escapes me right now, probably from the Forge). They thought you guys might be able to help me. In the end you evidently chose not to, despite choosing to host a stall yourselves after all, and I don't blame you for that. I wasn't a member at the time, as you say, and it's your decision who you partner with. I just want you to see it from my point of view, and at the moment the CE is looking rather cliquey. It would be very comforting to know that there was a practical and official procedure through which one could progress to obtain membership, something material and/or democratic, rather than having to hang around the forums indefinitely until everyone somehow reaches an unspoken consensus that membership is in order.

Ash

Neil, I think you have indeed eaten your own post ... and all to turn a "gamma" into "pre-alpha" X-(

I tried to get a cached version but I got your first edit, as the subsequent edit had become the latest version. Perhaps Matt can save us? Matt, help!

I think it's best we leave further editing until he can tell us if its gone for good.

I have to say that in all the many demos of the game I've done you were possibly the most awkward person I have come across when demoing. Like I say, you were probably having a bad day. Partly I think you were put in a very bad position by your friends -- who seemed interested in actually getting you to play despite your protests. I remember your line that it might take you three days to come up with a character name, which was possibly meant to be humourous but came across as dismissive and jarring.

I should also clarify that being the "most awkward" is partly a selection effect on my end, in that people truly disinterested in the game generally don't get as close as sitting down at the table, or being dragged there by their friends. (I don't have a problem with people saying it's not their thing -- you get used to it at GenCon in the US quite quickly).

What made it a shame was that had I know it was you then I would have said "hello Ash" since I know you (well the name) from posts on RPGnet and so on.

Having said all that -- I'm OK with it if that's all it was. You should definitely come up and say hello at a con and we can laugh about it.

I've tried to post above as clearly as I can about how I see membership being attained. As we have no leader or "founding father", we have no one person that can say "you're in" or not (which in some ways is a good thing). On the other hand we do have a group who have to collectively be happy and comfortable together, and confident about helping each other as designers, writers and publishers (so I can't speak for when others on the site will be comfortable with each other).

I will say that I am opposed to this becoming a clique. That's not what I want from this site and if it becomes one then it has failed (in my view).

I am overjoyed that recently we have people coming here who I don't personally know and are talking openly about their games and giving great feedback to each other. I would say that if you continue to give feedback and help to other members of the site then you will be seen as a member.

[As a little history... Before this site I knew Malc and Iain since 2003. As it was I knew Tim before either of them but had very infrequent contact with him. I didn't know Andy at all, and I had met Matt at Dragonmeet the year before. I knew Joe from the Ronnies competition in 2005 but hadn't met him until Conpulsion in March 2006. So we were a fairly disparate group who found a good mutual fit. So, from my point of view, I have always had an eye on this being an open place for people to meet, discuss, design and publish games.]

We're not a gang. There aren't initiation ceremonies and, as Gregor points out, we do not want this to become a clique where you have to gain approval from/suck up to some shady cabal that has the final word. However (and isn't their always a however), everyone who is part of the convention presence must feel comfortable with everyone else, must have enthusiasm for the games that we produce and display an appropriate attitude when dealing with the public at conventions and when dealing with each other.

Now, I certainly don't want this to become a dogpile on Ash regarding Games Expo or whatever. People have off-days, headaches and hangovers. Heaven knows, I can be an acerbic and brusque individual on occasion. But when you come a con as part of the Collective, brusqueness, unpleasantness and self-interest get left at the door, regardless of how you are feeling on that day. I will be honest here, Ash, and say that I did not come away with a positive impression of you after Games Expo. You seemed very dismissive of our games when they were being shown to you and did not have the good courtesy to actually introduce yourself. Now, I'm not saying you have to love and cherish every single game we produce, but positivity and enthusiasm are required. But more than that, it's the collective spirit that really must come through. And when it comes to reading responses such as this and Gregors comments, is to see them in the most charitable and positive light possible. Look upon them not as an attack to be responded to defensively, but as open and frank discussion that leads to something good.

I'm delighted if Cold City, a|state or Mob Justice sell well at a con. What delights me more than that is if our other games sell well. Many of my most satisfying moments with the collective have involved demoing someone elses game and then seeing them become enthusiastic about it and buy it. There was an older gentlemen at Games Expo whom I did a one on one Contenders demo with. He was unsure at the beginning, but by the end, he couldn't wait to buy the game and get people together to play it. And that gives me immense satisfaction.

And this attitude goes beyond our convention presence and extends out to our individual online presence, our interactions with people in all areas of gaming.

To my mind, the Collective Endeavour is becoming a very positive and recognised part of the British games scene. I would love to see this grow and expand, with more people coming on board, whether it's sharing thoughts on the forum, selling their games at cons or being inspired to strike out for themselves. Without that, the collective would be a failure.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

...all this stuff about being positive, mutualistic and charitable in reading posts especially counts for those of us who are on the Collective Endeavour booth already. I personally will have a greater tolerance for newbies who don't know the score over those of us who should know better.

Sorry, no copies I can find (missed a backup of the site DB by a few hours, soz)

...I may have a cached version of the page on my computer at work, but perhaps I am just sounding desperate. I will find out tomorrow by looking through my internet history. But it's a long shot.

Anyway, I guess this is a salutary warning about editing posts.

I might have a cahced version of that post.

As to the rest of the discussion, I can certainly back Malc up and say that we are definitely becoming a welcome presence at cons. Speaking from my experience at furnace, people were interested, friendly and willing to try something new. I ended up chatting to several people about game design and games in general and hope to see them popping up on the site in the next few days to engage.

In the end our presence at cons is our bread and butter. If we are enthuisastic, welcoming and friendly then people will invite us to other cons and word of mouth will spread about the kind support we bring to cons, large and small. Furnace certainly seemed delighted that we said we would be back next year in some form or another.

I for one don't see us being an exclusive club and am more than happy to welcome any new members who are willing to engage with the collective endeavour 'spirit'.

Cheers

Iain

Mob Justice now available!

'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.

Neil, if it's any consolation I read your post. It was a masterpiece and will live forever in my memory.

I find this particular one very odd. Why is it so dismissive? I always have difficulty thinking up a name, regardless of the game I'm playing. It wasn'tmuch of an exaggeration either. I've been known to sit around with a completed character for half an hour to an hour trying to come up with a name that suited it.

We were going for coffee afterwards, there wasn't much point me wandering off.

To be honest, it just never crossed my mind. It was an odd day all in all, though a thoroughly enjoyable. Most of my friends live a hellofa long way away you see, and I hadn't seen them for months. So I'd already spent half the morning dispensing greetings. I promise though that the only reason I may have been a bit techy is that I resent being badgered into things that I do not want to do (and as you say yourself my friends can be somewhat pushy at times.) I thought I'd done my best to decline as politely as possible, so I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

I should love to, next time the money is there. Alas, it is tight at the moment. I'm trying to scrape together the cash for some serious rendering software so that I can at least partially illustrate my own books, and I'm sure you know how much that kind of stuff costs. Not an easy amount when you're unemployed. I might make the next one in London (what's it called again? Like I said, I'm terrible with names) but it depends how the buying of the christmas presents goes.

I don't believe that it actually is a clique, but I do worry that it might come across as one from time to time, not through actual intent on the part of the members but more because of a lack of structure.

Anyway, I think that's cleared that little misunderstanding up, thank goodness.

Ash

That thing of "saying hello at a convention" is very important, I think.

My interpretation is that, in the Collective Endeavour, the social side is pretty important. Not in the sense that you have to drink with us before we let you in: just that we like to shake your hand, have a chat, get to know you.

In that sense, it's different from the Forge Booth, where you can pay 100 dollars and get a slot on the stall.

It's slightly closer to a group of friends renting a stall together. We'd be glad to have a friend of a friend on the stall, but we'd like it to be someone we've gamed with, so we can say: "Oh, yes, that guy".

(All of the above is just my take on it, you understand.)

Ash, the London convention is Dragonmeet, on Saturday 1st December. If you can make it, it'd be nice to meet you. If you really want to score Brownie points, you could always run a game of Contenders or Covenant or something.

Graham

The way I see it is that it's all about trust, communication and enthusiasm. You have to be a part of the collective spirit, so that when people ask you about someone else's game you are able to talk about it with genuine enthusiasm and not just dismiss it or point people to your own game.

Although this is just as true at Dragonmeet, because we're all there on the stall (except Malcolm, this year) it might not be as obvious. But it certainly is in evidence at the smaller cons where only a couple of us are there, but we're representing the whole of the Collective, not just in what we're selling but also what we're saying. That our sales figures at smaller cons are good for everybody, not just for those in attendance suggests that we're doing something right. I'd hate for us to lose that, and would feel terribly guilty if the only things that sold were those that were designed by the people on the stall that fday.

What am I getting at? I'm saying that it's not just about hanging about on the forums for a nebulous amount of time until someone in the clique pronounces you a member. You have to demonstrate you share our collective spirit and enthusiasm for all our games, not just your own. Post here more often, but not just about your own games. Comment on other people's designs and help other people with critique. Introduce yourself at conventions, get to know our games, show us your own games and talk to us in person. Demonstrate that you are a like-minded soul and willing to take up the banner of small-press publishing in the UK and fly the flag for all of us.

I missed a trick actually as Best Friends has a whole page of character names (i.e. just female names). :)

One great thing about being here is that we can do cons like Dragonmeet and Games Expo, which would be too much cost-wise for us to do individually. And having worked on writing and illustrating a game while unemployed myself i know the frustrations and limits that brings.

Anyway, this isn't all one-way traffic. "What can we do for you?", is an equal part of the equation.

I think I missed a lot of the more recent games discussions already, not noticed any new games being discussed since Solipsist. I did consider commenting about that, but pretty much everything I wanted to say had been said, and I don't think there's much point in repeating things, even for emphasis. I am keeping an eye on the forums' 'new additions' posts though, and if I feel I have anything to add to a discussion on anyone's game then I will supply it, but I'm not the kind of person to say something just for the sake of it. I'm a critic (a constructive one) and if I don't have something appropos to say, I generally don't say anything.

Don't worry, when a new game system comes to light I'll be certain to check out what everyone has to say about it. It's just that I've not really been able to get involved in any discussions so far because I've had nothing concrete and useful to bring to them.

Ash

The idea of buying in on a booth is to work the booth. To generate interest and sales.

You need to be able to pitch every game the booth sells.
You should be able to demo some other people's games and ought to be able to run other companies' games. 'Tis a collective endeavour.

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Oye... I can't seem to do right for doing wrong here, for some reason. For the last time, I don't mind helping out on the stall but since I'm not a member I didn't expect to be allowed to.

This is what I get for trying to help, I guess.

Ash

...taking Joe's post on its own, I think it's a pretty good summation of what being on the booth is about. I read it as a general post at this thread rather than aimed at any poster in particular. One of the things I really enjoyed being on the Forge booth was the brisk business and professional attitude you had to bring each and every day of GenCon.

So for those of us on a booth Joe's post is a good reminder, and for those who I'm sure will be on the booth in time it's a realistic assessment. Joe did miss out that the outcomes are (i) money, (ii) satisfaction and (iii) fun.

When on a booth you are there ...

• to work
• to generate interest and sales
• to help customers find the right game for them
• to be part of the face of this site as a whole

and you need to be able...

• to pitch every game the booth sells
• to demo your own games
• to demo some of other people's games
• to be able to run other companies' games
• be enthusiastic and interested.

In return a booth should cover its cost in sales, and sometimes (hopefully, most times) make profit. You end up with a good con experience and you get to meet a load of people enthused about gaming.

A downside is that you aren't as free to wander about and enjoy a con, because you do have a committment to the booth and your fellow boothers.

This is a big thing if you're wanting to play games, being on a booth can be a time sink (a fun and profitable one though).

I personally recommend spending at least one con a year not on the booth and playing the hell out of it. This is what I did at Furnace.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Personally, I rarely play games at conventions anyway. I mostly go to see what's new, and what's available that doesn't get stocked at my local gaming store. That's one great thing about RPG conventions, you're almost guaranteed to find something that you've never seen before.

Ash