I understand it's difficult to please everyone on these things.

Personally, and without trying to be awkward, I'd prefer that everyone on the stall (and who's paying for the advert) have their names and games mentioned.

Oh...a question. What's the advert for? Are we aiming at something that people will see and go "I'll go to that stall"? Or something that people will get out of the bag, when they get home and think "I'll visit that website"? Stop me if I've missed something.

Graham

No awkwardness at all.

I'll put a follow up post on who is on the advert (i.e. who I am expecting to pay for the con).

My initial thoughts were to point people to the website and explain who/what we are. I'm hopeful that people will see the banner in the hall (and on the con website and con banner) but they may not stop at first to see what we do. If they read the programme, either at the con or afterwards, then I'd like to explain to them the basics.

If we have a booth number then that'd be great to put on (and this works for GenCon) but at Dragonmeet it doesn't seem to work that way. In fact, I can't ever recall knowing where we'd be until the day of the con. So I figured that "see us at our booth" might be redundant. Hello! We're over here!

We have room to play with and I don't propose to finalise the advert before the end of the month (so I can sign off on who is in, and out, for sure).

... in alphabetical order...

Malcolm Craig (a|state, Cold City)
Tim Gray (Legends Walk!, Questers of the Middle Realms)
Gregor Hutton (Best Friends)
Andrew Kenrick (Dead of Night)
Iain McAllister (Mob Justice)
Matt Machell (Covenant)
Joe Prince (Contenders, Piledrivers & Powerbombs, Swansong)
Rich Stokes (Umläut)
Graham Walmsley (The Inspector Chapel Mysteries, Blackguard, Play Unsafe)

...is that everyone? And are we happy with the games listed?

Iain, is anything going to be definitely in ashcan for you at DM?

I have half a mind for us to be more pointed on the games we have available rather than exhaustive, and this will probably be more acute as time goes on (i.e. when everyone has more than d3 games and d4+1 ashcans).

Anyway, I'm seeing 9 hats in the ring. Anyone else?

...is uploaded above as ce-advert2.pdf.

Thanks for taking this on Gregor. It's very much appreciated, as I know how much you have on at the moment.

However, if opinions are being sought...

(All totally IMO)

First off, it's too wordy. Ads should be punchy and too the point. While I totally agree with the sentiment and ideas put forward in the copy, there is too much of it.

Line 1 of the copy ("We are...") could be used as a sub head, rather than merged with the copy. It is what we are, therefore it is important enough to warrant highlighting.

Both lines 2 and 3 use the test "...our forums...", leading me to think that they could be merged into one sentence, for example:

"Everybody is welcome to join our forums, which offer a friendly environment to encourage the discussion of games,
and to help new designers through the challenges of bringing their games to publication."

OK, so it's probably not the best, but anyway.

And finally, I'm not certain about the image of the web page. I'm not against it, but it doesn't light my fire (baby). However, I do realise that others (Gregor, Paul, Jon) have graphic design skills that far surpass my own, so will happily defer to their judgement.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

...please don't pad posts attempts at not treading on toes. Please just get to what you'd prefer, or not.

Malc: great. I'll see what I can do about that at the weekend.

Paul, Jon: any ideas for jazzing this up? Or thoughts on it? I based it, essentially, on functional filler ads that I use in my journal at work. One thing is that we have a full-page advert to play with.

So far: we like the footer and header? That's a good start.

Ta!

...as will become painfully clear when you look at this mock-up of an advert.

What I've tried to do, using a publishing program I don't really understand, is incorporate some of Malcolm's suggestions, reduce the text and give the game titles more prominence.

Gregor, not a challenge, you understand, just another idea for the pot, to be kicked around.

Graham

So this is an advert in the programme, not a leaflet going in the bag?

Looks OK to me, but then I'm a techie not a marketing bloke.

The one thing I would say is that I think that most people don't read the programme until after the show. They look them over on the train on the way home or after they've looked over all the stuff they bought at the con.

I dunno, I'd be interested in seeing a bit more about the games themselves, but then that might be a better focus for the leaflet.

If the focus of this ad is on the site/community (which is cool) then something along the lines of "We create and publish our own games, so can you!" but somehow not making it sound like a pyramid marketing scheme.

It'd be OK if it were an informative leaflet, but as an advert it's... well, not very exciting. In general consumers don't want to be told what a company is about and what it does, they want to cut straight to the chase and see what they sell. You'd be better off with a collage of book covers or a snappy slogan that says something about the products in an extremely brief way. People see a page full of writing, they think 'I'm not reading all that! Get to the point already!' Besides, if you tell them everything they need to know there's no cause for them to get curious and investigate for themselves. Keep 'em guessing, keep 'em keen, and for goodness' sake keep their attention.

Ash

What is this ad about?
How is it about it?
What is it supposed to encourage and reward?

I'd almost turn it around entirely and not make it about us, but about "them", or more precisely how we can be of benefit to them. Which is probably the result of listening/reading too much Seth Godin of late, but does tie in with Rich's thoughts.

Similarly, ultimately it's about games and that needs to be reflected.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

What is this ad about?
How is it about it?
What is it supposed to encourage and reward?

I see the advert as being about raising awareness of who we are, what we do and how other people can engage with us.

I don't see the programme ad as being a sales pitch for games, though if people want that instead then we should do that.

So...
This ad is about stating who we are and what we do in clear terms.
It does this by stating our mission and inviting them to check us out online.
It is supposed to raise awareness of the site and of contributors. It will achieve its objective if we get anyone joining up after seeing it in the programme.

My thinking was that the leaflet was a more transient and openly "selling" thing. That is, it would list games available and prices. It would have a shorter lifespan as games were added to the lists for sale, or were updated from Ashcans to final products. The leaflet is a separate piece of literature.

Do we want the leaflet to be the "Engage With Us" and the advert to be "Buy our games" instead?

Personally I don't want the advert to be solely about "buy my game", as that will possibly be a barrier to the feeling that we're a community that can be joined with active, positive and fruitful contribution.

I like the look of this site. It is the most visible "brand" we have and I think it's good to show it. I also like the logo of Paul and the tag line that Matt came up and I strongly feel these should run throughout our literature.

Everything else is up for debate. What do we want from the ad and the leaflet?

I think the problem is this: We have two goals here as far as I can see. Firstly to, increase awareness of this website/community and what goes on here. To let people know what goes on here and how it might be helpful to them. Secondly, to sell books. Either directly at the con or later over time by increasing awareness and getting the word out. Since we have two things in print at Dragonmeet, (the ad in the programme and a leaflet or whatever in the bag) lets use one for each.

A thing to remember is this: Generally people get the bag which has both the leaflet and programme in it. I'm mainly basing this on my observations and experiences and comments from friends, but there seem to me to be two types of people at thing like Dragonmeet: The Ultra-Busy and the Not-So-Busy.

The Ultra Busy will come in, they'll look around the hall and basically be tied up the whole time. They haven't necessarily got their entire day planned out or anything, they're just spending the whole time in the trade hall, talking with mates and gaming. In short, these are the guys who don't look at the programme until after the show. That's fine, chances are that we'll have spoken to a lot of them during the con anyway as they wander around the trade hall. But the ones we miss will probably look at the leaflet and programme on the way home and it'd be an idea if there was some decent info in there to get them at least partly informed as to the community and aware of what products they can get.

The Not-So-Busy people will look at the programme and decide who they want to talk to. I suppose that there needs to be some kind of something more eyecatching for these guys, to get them to check out the stall. But I'm not sure how many people actually fall into this category.

I do have an idea that I should throw out there...

...we have an illo of a demon or an Orc pondering with a pencil or quill, furrowed brow, thought bubble springing from his head (or maybe even a lightbulb or lantern above).

Copy...

GOT AN IDEA?
WE CAN HELP!

Logo, smaller, at top-right of page?

On the lower half a split page of what we do in bullets on the left-hand side, with a list of who we are on the right (with our games in Graham's style).

Down the middle are thumbnails of our book covers arranged in a pleasing pattern.

Strong footer as before with the URL and "Play. Discuss. Design. Publish."

Oh, and great feedback. I went with sans serif as it matched the site, but maybe something serif would be warmer?

What about something like: This?

That in an event flier would be really striking. No orcs, dragons, D20s, mugs of ale or all that other usual jazz? Just BANG - very simple, soviet stylee image with a hint at the CE logo?

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

Great illo, I will put something together with that!

I have a scribble on a post-it note. I'll try and upload a new PDF over the weekend.

I think the light bulb would look great on a flyer too, but more on the flyer next week.

Marketing 101 is about exchange - working out what your target wants and what you have to offer and matching the two.

In my opinion the things that this group - and thus the site - offers are:

- a warm and friendly yet working atmosphere
- true support for game designers
- a collaborative sharing mentality
- real successful small press experience
- a UK focus but an international point of view

So any materials will need to address these points overtly so that it can speak to anyone who comes along seeking such an 'exchange'. Moreover there is usually a problem getting a person to convert a website from a printed page to an online query. It's about them getting off their ass, turning on the computer and taking action rather than turning the page. Therefore you need to SCREAM to the people who want these exchanges that it is REALLY worth their while to be getting off their ass. I'm not sure that savvy gamers would do that for games sales but potential designers will if they are seeking what the site offers.

Also remember that a flier has two sides. One can address the website and another can address the games. Additionally I would use pictures of the games on the flier to try to get some recognition. Games that have a higher profile - like a|state, Cold City, Contenders, Best Friends - might well trigger that 'aha!' factor that lets people put two and two together.

Fliers have an atrocious return rate so it is better to give them a purpose for existence - like handing the flier back into the stall on the day, with the appropriate data capture of an email address and a ticked 'yes I would like to know more about CE games' box, and have a raffle for some games. That gets people engaged in coming to the stall and that gives the people there the oppportunity to grab them with 'So, what game are YOU interested in winning?' or something like that.

The stuff that has been said on the brand from the site continuing onto the literature is gold. Not only is the visual brand very strong but it underpins the mindest of collectivism that makes the site so attractive.

How big is the programme? A4? A5? Obviously that has a direct impact on what you can squeeze into an ad.

Maybe you could include some quotes from newer members of the site who are at ashcan stage - not fully blown contributing members - about their experiences? Like me! I think that the very mature and professional nature of the conversations that are carried out here can be a barrier to entry (they were for me a little) and having some reassurances that its simply not that way could help.

Oh! And I have found a printer that can do double sided digital colour print A6 fliers in 1000 runs for £50. And 8'x2' canvas digi-printed colour canvas banners, hemmed and eyed for about £60ish. I forgot to mention it earlier after my previous post.

Neil

See the new version posted as a JPEG (it's too big as a 600-dpi TIFF file).

Maybe a bit too overdone? Or maybe not?!

I quite like it. Noticed on my way home that Pizza Hut are ripping off our faux Soviet styling too. It's all the rage!

...I think it's too texty, though.

Personally, I'd get rid of the bullet points and even the lists of games and names. Just have "Got an idea? We can help", big picture, the URL and "Play. Discuss. Design. Publish". Simple and big and whitespacey.

Graham (...whoops...posting under Andrew's username)

I think the new advert is a big improvement over the old one. It grabs the attention fast, gets its point across with the minimum of fuss, and has a memorable theme to it (albeit one that wouldn't go down in, say, America, so it's a good job this is a UK convention, right?)

Incidentally, would it look more or less thematically funky if you wrote comrade with a 'K' instead of a 'C' --> Komrade. Not sure which is more authentically Russian.

Ash

I could go either way. I kinda like the feel of it just now. It is dense for sure, but I think its also eye catching because of that, and exudes a kind of frenetic enthusiasm.

Alternatively I can totally see where Graham is coming from. Stripping it right back as a teaser to get people to come here to investigate has its own merits.

And why yes, this fence is rather uncomfortable on my butt. ;)

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

Soviet iconography is high kitsch the world over these days. I don't think you would have any kind of problem using it in the States.

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

...for more info about who we are, whereas we have less space on, say, the front of the flier.

I think the flier could be the stripped-down thing on the front, with a menu of games and prices on the rear?

Authentic Russian is товарищ which is anglicised as tovarishch, originally meaning "business companion" :-)

I think it probably needs a few tweaks, though.

And IPR is probably the most visible site using the Soviet-style imagery, which ties in with us too.

Hmmmm. Tovarishch. Tovarishch. If I could just work out how the two diphthongs at the end of that word are supposed to interact, I think I'd like the sound of that :D Transliteration never was an exact science, was it?

Ash

...so you can see the alternate version here, again as a JPG, this time at 800 pixels wide. The high-res TIFF is about 1.5 MB.

I like the functional and workmanlike feel as well as the faux Soviet styling. And personally I think it looks OK with all the names and games on it. I reckon if I were a designer who hadn't heard of us and I did have an idea then I would check us out after seeing that ad.

...if we find an advert we like then people can also lift it to use in their books if they want. I note that Joe has a CE ad of sorts in the Piledrivers & Powerbombs print edition for instance.

That reminds me, I'm willing to slip a few small adverts into the back of my next book if anyone is interested, but the book's a bit of an odd shape... i.e. it's square. So if anyone is interested drop me an email (eldritchdesign AT aol DOT com) and we can talk about it.

Ash