Sadly I'm not as lucky as you guys so I have to source all my own art! We find artists by various means, either by them emailing me or me noticing their work somewhere and emailing them.

We just pay them a standard rate per picture, which depends on the artist. It's typically about $100 for a full page of art, so that's $25 (£12 or so) for a quarter page, which is the size we normally opt for. We pay either on delivery or within 30 days of delivery.

Covers are where I normally run into trouble, as they're really very expensive, so in the past I've employed industrious means of getting round it, such as using photos or stock art, or just creative use of graphics.

Finally I also use stock art when I can find suitably fitting art. RPGNow has a really good selection of stock art, although its heavily skewed towards fairly standard fantasy and sci-fi.

I've been taking a slightly different tack and using clipart. My sales are low, and I don't have personal income to invest/subsidise, so this is the most workable solution for me. I've now built up a little library of clipart collections, such that I can fill a lot of the needs of new projects without buying more. (Though more good modern stuff would be a help.)

Like Andrew said, there's some good stuff on RPGNow; and it's worth watching out for discounts. I've also made use of Dover clipart book-and-CD sets (I tend to bring in mythological stuff so real-world images can fit.)

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

I used the same artist for Covenant as provided the chapter header for The Agency. I let him know my budget and roughly what I needed, and we negotiated from there, not on the money, but on what was reasonable for it. As a UK guy, I worked with a US artist, where the exchange rate works in my favour to squeeze extra value.

The fact that I was working in an odd size helped, as artists often cost by standard pagesizes. Smaller is generally cheaper. I knew what I wanted from the layout, so I knew what I could afford to lose and still achieve the feel I was looking for.

Covenant used half page art originally as a cost saver, but the pieces were integrated into the layout in such a way that it doesn't feel like skimping on my part... That's an important thing I learnt from other indie games, a good layout can make minimal artwork shine.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Hopefully I'm working the forums correctly! Hello everyone, Malcolm has prodded me into some activity here over a pint last night.

Just quick intro - I'm Jon Hodgson, a UK freelance artist. I work primarily for Games Workshop on their Warhammer Historical line, and I do stuff for Wizards on D&D. But also I try to keep my hand in with the indies - I did a bunch of stuff for Dust Devils, and I've recently done a cover for Ron's Spione project. I live in Falkirk.

I'm very interested in what you guys are up to, bith from the perspective of being a UK illustration guy, and as a soon to be producer of a game I'm working on with jim pinto called George's Children: http://georgeschildren.blogspot.com/

Malc mentioned he'd be interested in hearing my thoughts on this issue from the freelance artist perspective, and Gregor asked the same question, but it was a busy night in the pub so we never really got the chance to get into it seriously.

When working with the bigger publishers its generally a case of you take what you're offered. They have standard rates, their budgets are all worked out, they know what they want, and there's not much room for maneuver.

With the smaller guys things can be a bit more exciting. I use a totally unfair charging system, which basically boils down to whether I like your game, or you, enough to work on it for cheap. I charge GW £750 for covers, and I charged Matt Snyder $80 (I think?) for the Dust Devils cover. And revised it for free. Because I like the game, and I like Matt. I'll burn a few midnight hours to work on something I really like. Basically I have to be convinced by whatever motivator that I want to do the work outside of regular work hours.

That doesn't really help anyone though does it? :)

Some thoughts then on what you can offer freelancers if you chose to go that route. None of this is earth shattering stuff, and clearly I have a huge bias at work, but hey, its a start:

1: Just offering what you can afford is always a good start. Just be totally up front. Say "I don't have much money, but I wonder if you'd take a look at our game and consider making some art for £X?" The worst the artist can say is no.

2: Hire UK artists. Getting paid in dollars sucks royally right now. Dollars are not worth much at the moment, so getting paid in pounds is good! You may be able to attract talent with your Sterling.

3: Consider your payment schedule. The faster you pay the happier your artist is to work for you. I don't really like taking all the money up front - what if I spend it and then break my arm? But half up front is a nice gesture. Monte Cook apparently pays an amount initially, an amount on receipt of sketches, and then an amount when he gets his finals. That's very popular in freelance circles.

4: Consider the rights you need, rather than what you want. Do you really need Work For Hire, like a lawyer will advise you to get? After some 10 years in freelance art I own precisely one batch of art that i've made commercially - the Dust Devils work. The rest is publisher owned. That actually makes me feel quite sad. Be realistic - are you really going to print the art on lunchboxes, option film rights, make miniatures based on the property? Really? That's what work for hire is for. Fair enough that Games Workshop want it - they will actually use it to make money. If you're don't have plans to use the work beyond that one publication, buy first rights. But don't use that to get a discount - use it as a perk. Let the artist resell the work.

5: Don't bullshit. Doing work on a small rpg does not offer exposure, fame, or much of anything. A bit of practice and a few quid is really what it offers. The chance to enjoy working in a small friendly team, and to make a real difference to the product. Be realistic about your likely sales too. Honestly, some of the pompous emails I recieve graciously offering me the chance to work for peanuts on books I know darned well won't sell 100 copies...one the other day asked me to pay for the rule books. It beggars belief.

6: Consider collaboration, rather than straight up work for hire. Just as CGS have done. There's a lot to be said for giving your team a slice of the pie. Its very motivating, and if its well thought out you can maintain your own product identity, and your own company, whilst still sharing the properties you work on with the creators. Working on George's Children I hope ot make one of the nicest looking small press books there is, and I'm not getting a cent for it (all proceeds will be going to a children's charity) but the pay off is that I will OWN it, and i have creative freedom. Which leads nicely to:

7: Offer creative freedom. If I were to be sent a manuscript, and the freedom to illustrate it however I wished - man I'd be on that like a fat boy on cake. Particularly if its a cool game. I totally get where Paul is coming from in CSG. Thats a really nice place to be.

8: Offer long deadlines.

9: Just be decent generally. Don't ask for a million reworks when you're paying $25 an image. Send your artists a comp book. Send them 3 books, you know? Talk about them and what a great job they did on line - that's actually exposure. Remember any deal is supposed to be mutually beneficial - whilst you are nominally in charge of the art direction, you're not in charge of the artist as a person. You're not doing someone a favour as such - or rather you shouldn't be - if their work is worth printing its worth respecting them as an equal. It feels weird to have to even say that, but you do sometimes get treated like an idiot by publishers.

10: Ask the artist if they have existing pictures they can sell you. See here?: http://jonhodgson.deviantart.com/ I own all of that work and would happily let it be used on small press stuff very cheaply. Especially if its paid up in cash over a pint at Conpulsion for example. ;) I have a huge back catalogue of old practice images that eventually I want to get on line somewhere, available for purchase cheaply. Less stock art (which I think is harmful for an artist's brand to offer) more second rights for sale kind of thing.

11: Ok, the "here's £X, do what you think that's worth" method... Now I have a small issue with that... it really puts emotional pressure on your artists to provide more than the budget is worth, so that they don't look mean. Its a total abdication of responsibility for the budget. And hey sure, you can spin it the other way, that really you're offering the artist total freedom. But don't tell me you're not hoping to get a certain amount for your money. And maybe a little bit more if you're lucky? ;) And I'm not entirely sure that's fair, when you're in a freelance situation. I've worked under that system, and maybe its just me, but I didn't really like it. It just feels awkward.

Anyway there's a GIGANTIC first post. :):):)

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

Hi Jon. Thanks for posting such an informative response. I think there is much information contained there that will be really helpful to a lot of people.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Good to see you here Jon! I think you've illustrated some of the first ever books I was involved with (Smuggler's Bane, Bloode Island and Lords of the Night: Zombies). It'll be good to catch up at Conpulsion - last time I saw you was at Gencon a few years back rapidly stuffing cash into your shoes :-)

I've been reading Jim's threads on George's Children with some interest - it sounds really cool, and it'd be good to see you post about it here!

I agree with everything you've said. I think the motto when dealing with artists (or anyone, really) should be "don't be a dick."

I've struck up a good relationship with Keith Senkowski along the lines you've suggested - being honest as to what i can pay, only licensing rights to use the art, pay on completion, not publication, long deadlines and so on, and it's working out well for me, and he's done some great art for Six Bullets.

Can someone sticky this? I think any small publisher should read Jon's points.

I would say that indie publishers should be more aware of the great strength that mutualism and being decent and upfront with collaborators can bring to their work.

It blows goats that an artist doesn't get comp copies, and that publishers try to stiff them at every turn. I'd hope that indie publishers, being creatives themselves, would read Jon's points and avoid that approach.

Now stickied for the reference of all.

Slightly off topic, but I think a page on the non-forum section of the site should be created in order tocollate such links and be a useful reference tool for those seeking information. We already have a few such threads that would benefit from this collation.

Cheers
Malcolm

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Thanks for the welcome, all!

I know that sometimes people can roll their eyes a little at yet another freelancer moaning on about their treatment. And sometimes people do lay it on a bit thick. I also felt a bit like a lot of what I've said is stating the obvious to a degree. But I think it bears saying, you know?

Mutualism I think is the tremendous strength that the indies can wield, alongside flexibility and personability.

I'm quite excited by that idea today. :)

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

This is the kind of thing that's been discussed on the Forge a lot, over the years.

Have a look at the Art page of this Publishing Wiki. It links to a couple of useful, old threads.

Graham

Cheers

Gregor

Well, I followed Andrew Kenrick's Live Journal to here, and am quite pleased I did. I've been considering the whole create-my-own thing for a while, but have been so busy with commissions and new babies that I haven't seriously tackled it yet.

However, now that baby2 is born, and the new routines are establishing, I think it's about time to start thinking about my own stuff again (but I'll make no promises).

Anyway, I answer here because as well as writing I do freelance art for Games Workshop's background books, for WFRP, and occassionally for Green Ronin, as well as a bunch of private commissions for individuals. To conclude the quick intro, I live in Edinburgh.

In general, I agree with everything Jon has to say. Of his points, I would really stress point 2, as the US$ really sucks ass just now, which makes US$ employers look really bad to us Brits. Waving good ol' GB£ notes in my direction gets my attention every time (which is why I'm doing more work for GW just now).

I'll also add my support for his 11th point. I never work for 'here's £x - do what you think that's worth'. I hate it. I refuse to accept jobs like that. I'd rather work for free (and I hardly ever work for free). The bizarre twisting of expectations is too much for me to be bothered with.

In addition to Jon's excellent summary, I'd add that there are a lot of artists out there that aren't doing the whole art thing as their full-time job (just as it is for writers). Because of this, many of them are willing to take a cut in pay for jobs they like because they can afford to. Just now, I work on WFRP because I love the game, not for the money. In comparison to other jobs I do, it pays pretty badly. I can do this as I'm actually a house-dad - I freelance for extra money and free books.

Other than that, I can only re-stress what Jon was suggesting. Getting artists actively involved with your product, and excited by it, will make them far more likely to work for less. Jon mentions creative freedoms and collaborations. I totally agree with both of these, as they can not only help build a good relationship with your artists, but they will help ensure artists are as keen as you are for the art to work for your project. Having an emotional, as well as financial, investment in the finished work can pay dividends for both artists and writers (but there are pitfalls be be aware of, but they can be covered in another post if I have the time). Further, an artist is far less likely to get things wrong if he is interested and excited by the project, and understands the setting/game/whatever intimately.

Obviously, to do this you really need to get to know some artists. Maybe at cons, or though other gamer contacts, or whatever; I assume you all know what this involves. But actually knowing them well helps, as, to use myself as an example, I bend further for friends than for people I don't really know.

Building upon that. Be nice, friendly, and polite. I can't stress this one enough. It may sound obvious, but some people I've talked to about commissioning art are little less than rude. I'm quite likely to do work on the cheap for people I like. I will never do it for people that I don't like, even if I love their game. Indeed, this happened to me recently, and caused much heart-ache for me, as I loved the game (just not the people making it), so I turned down a dream job because it paid poorly. If the chap mailing me about it had been open, friendly, accomodating, and, in general, just a nice guy, I would probably have taken the hit to my paycheque and done the job anyway.

So, to conclude quickly (as my wife is calling me - Lori, my daughter, has just been /very/ sick). To save your pocket taking a big blow for some good art, get to know some artists and get them involved with your projects, not just working for you. I.e.: what Jon said.

;)

Andy Law
www.hapimeses.com

Hey Andy - good to see you here, and welcome to the Collective Endeavour! Thanks for the post - it was very enlightening and interesting.

With you guys here, it might be worth spinning off a new thread on Art Direction, general communication in the process and so on.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Just wanted to stick my head in the thread and say I haven't forgotten about forumulating something about art direction. I've been hellishly busy of late but I fully intend to share my /enormously/ valuable gems of wisdom on this topic at some point! ;)

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.net

Now then!

I'm Greg (also known around abouts and Evil Doctor) and Malcolm suggested I come over for a chat with you guys. I've worked with CGS a bit, plus a few other companies (Pelgrane Press, Morrigan Press), and I've just put together and published my first game (check out the website below). Oh, and I'm a Brit!

www.fireruby.co.uk

Good to see there's a forum for us Brit designers!

Anyway, on to art - when I put Ruby together, I was rather relying on a friend to do the art. That didn't pan out though - she had a second baby instead! So I was going to go for a zero art content release, but my mate persuaded me to go for it, so I started soliciting for art. I contacted a few guys of rpg.net with some general questions and one guy, Gary Dupuis (www.gdupuis.com) replied. His rates for quater page B&W were good, around $15-20 (he's Canadian), so I blew some cash and got some pictures done. I basically gave him a description and then free rein to do what he liked, and I'm pretty happy with the results. I realise I'll probably not recoupe the investment, but for me that wasn't the point.

Art is a tricky one - it's expensive and the market for rpg (indie ones especially) is small. Plus from POD printing, the profit is tiny. Still, I had a great time working with Gary, and would recommend him to anyone. Despite the continental gap everything worked very well through the wonders of PayPal!

Cheers,

Greg

If you want cheap art then my advice is to scour websites for aspiring comic book artists. There's some extremely talented people wanting to break into that industry who will produce work very cheaply if it means getting something published.

I'm in the same position as Gregor (potentially) I can do my own artwork, and have already done some of the art for Solipsist, but (humorously) my art style doesn't happen to be what I really want for my game, so I've been in the position of trying to commission art as well.

So far what I had had done I have paid for on a price negotiated by the piece (it was around 25 Euros for a full A5 page I think). Offers of work from people who wanted to do it to get a foothold into the RPG illustration business have gone less well, and I haven't seen any of those yet.

Maybe I should be approaching some of the many talented artists who have posted on this thread already and happen to live where I do! :)

Solipsist RPG, on its way ... eventually

In a strange twist I am now doing the opposite of what I was talking about in my last post (no response from the talented artists ... drat!) and selling some RPG artwork to someone else.

In this case I have been drawing maps and am being offered £50 for an A4 black and white drawing. As a comparison the same company is paying $80 for A4 images from american artists.

I just thought the rates might be of interest.

Solipsist RPG, on its way ... eventually

I'm a bastard so I look long and hard for artists that are good but not that popular. I have a max budget of 100$ per piece of full page art.
I did the cover for my game, Van Dread by myself, but I still commisioned an alternative one and some other art. To break it down:
100$ for an A4 alternative cover(has 3 characters and background)
65$ for an A4 landscape(doh!) art. Has 2 characters and a car.
100$ for 20 small, low-detail sketches(to pad my interiors)

I don't think I'll be spending any more money on art.

Given the number of sales a small press game might make it's clear to see that there isn't much room for an art budget. Certainly compared with larger RPG publishing companies.

Still, I feel strongly that you get what you pay for -- so I think you have to use what money you do have wisely.

My view is that I'd rather spend a significant amount of money on a very good cover, or a very, very small number of significant interior illustrations than fork out $100 for 20 illustrations, say. At $5 an illo that would barely buy me a pencil per piece drawn.

Hey, if you can get good ones for that price then great. For me, low quality art detracts from the work and I'd rather have fewer pieces at a higher quality for my money.

Speaking as a punter, I agree. Low quality art makes the whole product look cheap and shoddy. I'll impulse buy things if they just look good sometimes.

An interesting point about art just to throw in, for the Monsternomicon, (Iron Kingdoms), Privateer had the art of the creature done first, then made rules and description up afterwards. If you give an artist an impression of what you want, his input can drive aspects of your game or open up new ideas. So, decent quality 20 pics for $100 buck might get you some mileage from that point of view.

G.

I like art in games. It's a big deal for me, so I want my game to have at least some art in it (and 20 illustrations isn't that much art). I'm getting them cheap because the artist is a cool guy and doesn't think a sketch should be worth 50$ like most artists do (don't ask me why). It's mostly a matter of me needing some character and monster designs.
This is my cover: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/northerain/TheDarknessUltimateCovercopy.jpg

This is the alternative cover: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/northerain/VANDREAD.jpg

This is a character sketch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/northerain/guycenter.jpg

Very nice northerain

How many pages are you planning to have? In other words what is the art to page ratio?

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

That is a good question. I'm not really at that point yet. But I'm thinking every 2nd page will have art, the book will be...what, 150 pages? So that's 75 art pieces. I'll have 20 interiors, some concept sketches from the covers, a bunch of my own art and possibly some stock. I think I'm going to make it.

They do? Can't say I know anyone who thinks that.

Really loose sketchy stuff like you've shown is understandably far cheaper than more finished artwork. And hey, often looks nicer than overworked stuff. :)

For a cover I don't think the one you commissioned looks anything like a finished cover piece that people ask larger sums for - that's a sketch where I come from, which I personally would happily do for $100. Normally I'd do 3 or 4 like that at the sketch stage for a cover commission.

I think its important to compare apples to apples in these chats so people don't get all huffy.

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.com

Artist charging is a very very subjective thing as well, its all about how the artist percieves the value of their own work, and how long it took, and how desperate they are for work at the time they charged, and a host of other intangible factors.

For example the maps and plans I did for the Starblazer RPG took me about 5 hours each (or slightly more). If I charged for that at the rate I do IT work then they could never have afforded them! But I was keen to do the work and so I was happy to charge a much lower rate than that. Another artist might not have done so, and another artist would have done it for free.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

It's not a finished cover. It was still in progress at the time. Granted it's not too different now that it's finished, but I'm ok with that.
About what artists ask in terms of payment, having looked around a lot and after talking with a few people, yeah some artists ask a lot for interiors. 100$ for quarter page art is stretching it, at least the way I see it. It's not that the artist doesn't deserve that amount, it's just that it's not plausible for an indie designer to pay 1000$ for 10 interiors.

And please don't take this the wrong way, but I contacted you about a cover and my 100$ budget wasn't getting me anywhere. Again, no offense, right?

Yeah, no problem, George.

As a publisher it's absolutely your right to decide where to spend your budget, or even if you have one at all (and that's a point valid for art, as it is for editing, layout, advertising, etc.). And this is a business after all. Equally, for artists (and other professionals) it's absolutely their right to decide what their work is worth. After all, someone like Jon has to pay his bills and support his family through his craft.

I think $100 for a cover is well below the minimum Jon could work for, given that he gets paid many times that by Wizards, Games Workshop, and so on. Having said that, perhaps this is an issue of communication (again) where a query about what you can get for $100 is worth investigating ("I'd like to use it on a cover, but will it be finished enough if I only invest $100", but still the answer might be a few internals for $100 is what that would get you).

Frankly, I've seen some publishers (both big and small) ask for a "cover", or for heavily worked alterations to a piece, but only want to expend a miserly amount for the skill and effort put in. The cover is what will sell your book on a crowded stand of games, and it is worth investing in.

Dogs in the Vineyard, for example, had only one piece of art in the original printing -- a gorgeous cover by Drew Baker. Now, while we can't all have a famous artist as our brother, I think it's key that the book had a professionally done cover and that's where all the art budget went.

I usually figure to spend between $150 and $200 for a cover picture. I average between $30 and $40 for interior work. I refuse to pay by published size as this may change between the ordering of the art and the layout stage; I pay by complexity of image. On the other hand, I always pay upon receipt of the finished artwork (or a low-res proof if preferred) rather than after publication. As far as I'm concerned once the artist has done the work, they've earned the money.

Ash