So I had the lovely shevy round last night and took her through the new stuff i was doing with reel adventures. We didn't really play that much just kind of tore the game down and rebuilt it and I would like to talk about why and get your thoughts on it, especially those who have played previous versions.
First the core idea of builiding and action story with its nemesis remains. However the game as it stood was not really encouraging people to get involved with their characters. Sure we were telling fun stories about them, but people didn't really get involved in their characters. The key thing here is telling stories rather than being invovled in them.
Does that seem accurate to those who have played it or have I allowed myself to get lost in a mire of design?
Shevy found the above unstatisfying and mentioned she had come across it before in other indie games, especually those reliant on a tight scene structure like reel adventures does. So we set about changing the game a bit and have come up with some ideas that I will be implementing over the course of the next week and hoepfully be playtesting more this coming weekend.
This is the first time the difference between storytelling and roleplaying has really hit me hard in a design way and I find that interesting. Have the rest of you encountered similar problems in your own design? Can you make a system that involves the players more with the characters if they are telling stories about them rather than with them?
I open the debate to the floor!
Cheers
Iain
It's accurate...
Submitted by Graham W on Wed, 22/08/2007 - 22:17.
...but I'm not that bothered by it. I've also played Prime Time Adventures and not been bothered that I'm not involved in my character.
As a data point, My Life With Master gets you involved in your character and has a tight scene structure.
Graham
Honestly?
Submitted by Matt on Wed, 22/08/2007 - 22:19.
I think your grasping at the difference between generating fiction and creating a story, and which RA is for, rather than a difference in roleplaying and storytelling. I think you want to make sure any changes to RA are about changing the game to do what it does better, rather than change it to do something else, which it sounds like you're considering.
I've always seen Reel Adventures as about re-creating your own version all those half-remembered interchangable action movies, and revelling in the cheesiness of it all... We know what's going to happen, cos we all know what action movies are like. As such really engaging with my character seems not quite what the game is about.
-Matt
Realms Publishing
I will dwell on this and
Submitted by Iain McAllister on Wed, 22/08/2007 - 22:28.
I will dwell on this and reply later in the week, I think you may be right though.
Cheers
Iain
Mob Justice now available!
'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.
Boilerplate Forgey post
Submitted by Graham W on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 04:47.
Hi Iain,
Can I make a couple of suggestions?
Firstly, I wonder whether it would be worth going back to the traditional "What is your game about?" thing.
There are interesting mechanics in RA, but I get the feeling there should be some core that they all revolve around. At the moment, I'm not quite seeing that core.
For example, the core might be "Everything is defined through action". If so, I'd try stripping out everything apart from the rules which define a character through action. That sort of thing.
Secondly...and you might hate me for this...I wonder if it's worth thinking about the traditional Forge Gamism vs Narrativism split.
What I mean is: is this a game about challenge or about telling a story? This game could be about the Narrator presenting a challenge and the players having to overcome it: sink or swim, let's see how you deal with this.
Or it could be about telling a story. That'd mean you're playing about with some human issue (in Contenders it's Hope vs Pain; in the Roach it's about academic reputation; in Best Friends it's about backbiting friends). Doesn't have to be deep and meaningful.
I think RA is in the second camp. If it is, I'm not sure what the human thing we're kicking around is. Heroism, perhaps. Or making your life meaningful. Or something.
And I have a nasty feeling (contrary to what I said before) that, if it's that kicking-around-a-human-issue of game, maybe we do need to start thinking about identifying with characters. Aaargh. Sorry.
I don't know. Any of that help?
Graham
That does help Graham
Submitted by Iain McAllister on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 06:37.
That does help Graham thanks. I am going to let the issue rest in my head for a day or so then have a shot at reconstructing the game.
Any further comments are still welcome .
Cheers
Iain
Mob Justice now available!
'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.
Following up on Graham's comment
Submitted by Matt on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 09:04.
I've always seen RA as solidly Sim, if viewed through a Forge lens. Sure it uses all kinds of funky techniques, but they all revolve around that shared celebration of action movie tropes.
Which is kinda the point I was making in my previous post, but trying to avoid jargon. There is no human issue to address. Any that there are are already pre-addressed by the genre we're celebrating. If you try and shoehorn in an issue to be addressed, then you are looking at a very different game.
-Matt
Realms Publishing
That's a fair point.
Submitted by Graham W on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 11:17.
Yes, Sim. I don't really understand Sim.
I wanted to mention, quickly, how Prime Time Adventures does it. Each character has an Issue and play (mostly) is about addressing that issue.
Reel Adventures could work similarly. Each character, say, could have a drive to resolve. Like, in Die Hard it's about getting his wife back; in Die Hard 3 it's "Am I too old for this shit?"; in Lethal Weapon it's about committing suicide.
So, if you wanted to go down the "character" route, that would be a way to go.
If, as Matt suggest, you want it to be a celebration of action movies, then you needn't worry about all the issue shit, and just cut straight to big explosions and guns.
Right, I'll stop bollocking on now.
Graham
One last bit of bollocking on before I go
Submitted by Graham W on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 11:18.
Oh! And!
Iain, you know how, in the other thread, you're talking about generating buzz?
Take this to Story Games or Knife Fight! Ask them about the Big Model there! They'll have a fucking field day with it!
I suggest Story Games if you want maximum exposure and lots of opinions; Knife Fight (in the Hardcore Big Model category) for useful answers. With Knife Fight, you'll have to put up with the nicey-nicey group-hug shite, but you'll cope.
Graham
Oh
Submitted by Gregor Hutton on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 11:27.
...for KF you have to post something reflective first. I'm still mulling that over.
So Story Games might be a good public train-wreck that would produce useful answers.
Graham, I have an Ashcan T-shirt and a Knife-Fight button for you.
Reel Adventures struck me as DoN for Action Movies too, and DoN is Sim.
Iain, I'm having similar
Submitted by Rich Stokes on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 12:20.
Iain,
I'm having similar thoughts about stuff myself.
One question though:
Why do you think people need to identify with characters in an action movie? What was coolest about Die Hard 4? Was it the relationship between John and his daughter or the F22 firing missiles at a truck on the freeway overpass?
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Kevin Smith's dialogue, but I went to see explosions.
I agree with everyone and
Submitted by Iain McAllister on Thu, 23/08/2007 - 17:23.
I agree with everyone and that makes me mad. Must..make...deciscion. Time to take this to story games and see what happens. I have some new system ideas that i will post there and here in the not to distant future.
Cheers
Iain
Mob Justice now available!
'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.