I think the biggest problem for the 2nd half of the game was that, as detective, I felt marginalised.

Because he has to go last in a round, and people can't choose to (and have no mechanical reason to) frame scenes with the detective I did a lot of thumb twiddling. This becomes a double-whammy with losing your character.

I feel some way of keeping the detective involved mechanically or otherwise in scenes they aren't part of is needed. Even if it's as simple as getting a single dice that they can use if they add "facts" to other scenes might be enough.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Matt, it's a fair criticism. What would you have liked to do? The options are going to be traditional GM things, probably...

* Decide who gets the Black and White dice
* Act as an arbiter in disputes
* Frame scenes aggressively
* Enter any scene you want
* Play NPCs
* Describe the environment

Did any of those need someone to fill that role?

Graham

Just a short note that in one round we had 5 scenes (three mystery and two compulsion) which meant a long time on the sidelines for Matt's detective Norman Saxon. We dropped the Compulsion Scenes for subsequent rounds I think.

Thanks very much for posting this, Gregor.

So...my questions so far would be...

What was the problem with the White Die? Did it add anything at all?
WHat was the problem with Compulsion Scenes?
Was 0 influence in relationships a problem?
And what's this thing about desperation dice?

Graham

Sami felt that as a player he still wanted a say in who got the dice. For example he was never involved in a conflict between me and Joe (he had 0 influence on me if I was the target). But he was still engaged in the scene if he had sway over the black/white dice.

I think there was a feeling that the rules say "claim the dice" which encourages players to grab them and stretch the fiction, perhaps. But having them "awarded" is different and puts them firmly in the detective and other players' hands.

I wonder if the detective should have a growing influence. He has one (?) red die he can poke into a conflict in Round 1 of Act 2, then two in Round 2, and so on?

We didn't have disputes that we didn't resolve mutually. The framing was very good I thought and we found that just getting to the conflict in scenes in Act 2 was more natural. Description went well from the players in the scenes and the few NPCs we had were OK handled by the players in the scene (for example, my wife who was having an affair with Matt's Libertine).

Yeah the turn order for the final round created a kind of Mexican stand off. In mystery scenes, I could probably nobble Gregor, Gregor would implicate Sami (4 dice to 0) and Sami would probably nobble me.
In the end we just rolled for it and fortunately I won. This meant Sami didn't get a free scene in the final round.

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

What was the problem with the White Die?
The black dice rolled 6s happily and we always were able to find fictional elements that could use it. Duplicity? Check! Hatred? Check! Violence? Take a spade to the head Joe Prince!

The white dice didn't roll as many 6s so it wasn't until it clicked off Love that we found ourselves wondering about Sincerity and eventually Heroism. We need examples to show us what to use for those, or for those words to be different.

Did it add anything at all?
Oh, both the dice were helpful. We were all trying to get them as often they were more leverage in a tight situation or your only dice.

Hilariously we once rolled 4 "1"s on the dice. Your rules for resolving ties were stellar.

WHat was the problem with Compulsion Scenes?
They lengthened the rounds (as they were additional scenes) and picture the situation of two players bullying a third player into never having a scene that they determine themself. Also the order then became important of who was framing scenes.

Was 0 influence in relationships a problem?
Well, it is a good part of the game, but you sometimes got a situation with 0 influence, no one able to aid and the white/black dice being awkward to get. I really bullied Sami with my 5 Influence over him, while he had 0 over me. He was reliant on Joe for support, which Joe wouldn't necessarily give if I was making him worse.

And what's this thing about desperation dice?
We followed the rules as written for the game. Afterwards we wondered if you could get awarded dice when in desperation, which seemed a common character trait displayed in the fiction. Perhaps this should be a word for either the black or white dice?

Joe thought the game could support a third kind of dice. Joe?

All right. So it looks as though...

1. Perhaps the White Dice should be about Heartbreak, Desperation and stuff, rather than Love and Heroism.
2. Influence should never go down to zero: you never lose that last influence die.
3. Compulsion scenes should be cut. They're rather a sacred cow.
4. The Detective should get influence in every scene. Perhaps it should build (perhaps every time he rolls a six, he gets an extra die, or something). Perhaps he can narrate an entrance into one scene per round.

Did you do the group scenes to start each round?

Sorry to fire questions at you. Do post the conflicts and the story and stuff when you get a moment. (Lucky you're not busy or anything).

Graham

Those sound excellent. Heartbreak and Desperation would have been fought over by the players. Sami's painful desperate pleadings of a man dying of alcoholism, owed money by the Lord were dramatic and fun. We'd have been throwing the die at him for desperation. Or how about my character cuckolded by the lounge lizard De'Banther Smythe and my loveless marriage? When I announced that I had ordered my wife to sleep with him to sully my own name and protect hers. Heartbreaking.

If we always have at least 1 influence die that kills off any other dice requirements. You could always roll a 6, always that hope.

I like the Detective's dice incrementing on a roll of 6, and allowing him to butt into a scene sounds good.

When I open my bag later tonight I will put all the numbers up.

I found the game very satisfying and I think with some fixes and some text examples you will have a winner.

...Oh, Oh! Group scenes!

Yes, we had the afternoon tea, then the morning of the murder, then the funeral, then the will reading. The follow scenes need to be shorter and to the poinrt of the accusation. Then the game races into the Reasons and are very exciting. The opening scenes were better gentler, building up the influences, ties between players and forming these characters in the fiction.

These are great, really give the Gosford Park / Poirot feel.

We had a breakfast, a hunting party, the funeral and the will reading, as well as others I forget.

We did do one sneaky addition, which was me playing the priest and giving my character's Eulogy and playing the solicitor reading his will. This was cool as it allowed me to be involved post character death.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Yes, the hunting party! Shotguns on the moor.

And the Eulogy at the funeral by the Victim's player was excellent. Many, many single red roses thrown on your coffin if I recall.

First the questions/notes I took during play...
-----
Influence Scenes
When you use Influence in someone else's conflict, is it the full Influence to one party? Or can you split it? Say, 2 to one and 1 to the other? Or all 3 to either, or none to both? Or less than your full number of Influence, say 1 rather than the full three?

The protagonist loses, who narrates?

If the protagonist loses and the Target has 0 Influence what happens? You don't have any Influence to move. And you can't reduce it any further (if you cap the lowest Influence possible as 1).

The Second Act
Eulogy by the player of the victim as scribbled on my copy of the rules by Matt.
-----

-----
The setting was 1930s England in a stately home somewhere in the countryside, perhaps not so far from London.
-----

Now, the characters...
-----
Lord Greystone (Sami Koponen)
Rich through inheritence, living to enjoy life. My sister doesn't like my lifestyle. Has a huge stable.
Influence...
The Colonel - I spy on the Arabs for him
Dr Peasbody - My doctor due to my alcoholism
De'Banther Smythe - owes me some gambling debts

Colonel Ralph Ledger-Stewart (Gregor Hutton)
Rich well-educated military man who served with distinction in the Great War in the Middle East. An Orientalist in the Foreign Office.
Influence...
Greystone - He spies on the Arabs for me
Dr Peasbody - I looted a tomb for him
De'Banther Smythe - He is screwing my wife

Dr Peasbody (Joe Prince)
An academic specialising in the field of proto-psychology and inventor of the Peasbody telescope.
Influence...
Colonel - Acquired a tomb artefact for me
Greystone - Is my patient, a raving alcoholic
De'Banther Smythe - Owe him money for research funding

James De'Banther Smythe (Matt Machell)
Rich layabout with an eye for the ladies. Played cricket and rowed at Oxford (note: not for Oxford).
Influence...
Colonel - I am screwing his wife
Dr Peasbody - funded his research but there is no return
Greystone - owe him gambling debts
-----

Next up will be the order of things...

A group scene opens the game and it is tea time (?) at Lord Greystone's. And...

THE FIRST ACT
-----Round 1
The Colonel targets Peasbody while viewing the stables. All about some info on the Arabs that got a spy killed out there. The Colonel wins.

Peasbody targets the Colonel and loses. I think Peasbody wanted more items from the Orient. The Colonel's Duplicitous black die rolls a 6 and is now only usable for Hatred.

Greystone targets De'Banther Smythe and wins.

De'Banther Smythe targets Peasbody and loses.
-----Round 2
Peasbody targets Greystone and loses.

The Colonel targets De'Banther Smythe and wins. His Hatred Black die rolls a 6 and is now only usable for Violence. It was all about not sleeping with his wife again.

Greystone targets the Colonel and loses.

De'Banther Smythe had a scene but I didn't note it down.
-----

THE MURDER
We all wrote down someone we wanted killed and out of the pile came... De'Banther Smythe.

We later looked at the votes: 2 for Smythe, 1 for Greystone and 1 for Peasbody. Much better that it is a random pick than a vote, don't change this. It is perfect.

...this lead Matt to introduce detective Norman Saxon.

We ended the game here for the moment, and got a lift back to the hotel by Marko. We then kicked off on Saturday with Act 2.

Matt narrates that the murder was 1 week after the last scene. Smythe dies in the greenhouse a pair of garden shears thrust through him. The dew fresh on the corpse.

The alibis...

The Colonel - I was in bed with my wife.

Greystone - I was blind drunk.

Peasbody - I was at the British Library and the night librarian will vouchsafe for me.

Just so you know, I love all of this.

The reciprocal traits are great, and they're much more detailed than the ones I had in mind. Nice.

The murder description and alibis work well. I must make that a bit more formal.

Graham

THE SECOND ACT
-----Round 1
Colonel mystery scene on Peasbody and loses.

Peasbody mystery scene on Colonel and wins. Colonel has a Reason To Be Scared.

Greystone mystery scene on Peasbody and loses, the White die rolls a 6 and now is open for Sincerity.

Detective mystery scene on Peasbody and wins. Peasbody now has a Reason To Be Scared too.
-----Round 2
Colonel influences Greystone and wins.

Colonel then compels Greystone to influence Peasbody.

Greystone influences Peasbody and wins.

Peasbody mystery scene on the Colonel and loses.

Peasbody compels the Colonel to mystery Greystone (next scene, which will be in the next round).

Detective mystery scene on Greystone and wins. We all now have a Reason To Be Scared.
-----Round 3
Peasbody mystery scene on Greystone fails.

Greystone mystery scene on Peasbody succeeds. Peasbody now has a Reason To Keep Quiet.

Colonel mystery scene on Greystone succeeds. Greystone has a Reason To Keep Quiet too.

Detective mystery scene on the Colonel succeeds. The Colonel also has a Reason To Keep Quiet.
-----Round 4 (we roll dice to determine order)
Peasbody mystery on the Colonel succeeds, he indeed had A Reason To Murder.

Colonel mystery on Greystone succeeds, and he also has A Reason To Murder.

DENOUEMENT
Saxon outlines the cases... both strong.

Greystone pleads his innocence.

The Colonel pleads his case.

The dice are rolled. A tie. The tied dice are cleared and Greystone is the murderer.

At some point the White die rolled a second 6 but I don't have a note of when. The black die was getting more attention than the white die for sure. I think the ideal is that by Act 2 they should be getting acted for in every scene.

Compulsion scenes might be an option instead of a mystery or influence scene, but as you can see. Influencing and establishing characters gets done early, Mystery scenes dominated the Second Act.

Of course, this misses out all the roleplaying. Sami's desperate wild eyed old man -- I have two weeks to live, my body is broken, I needed my money returned -- was a joy.

Matt's sharp and pointed detective had just the right level of black humour and dry wit.

Joe's Peasbody was a grubbing academic not scared to threaten a Great War hero for his own ends.

My Colonel was a wretched creature who clearly had a reason to murder and struck Peasbody with a spade in the garden.

It's also worth noting that on one of Greystone's influence scenes he failed to influence me, but I had his Arab thugs beat me up anyway in narration. They beat me physically but I could not be influenced by such an act!

And the moving a die to someone else when you failed was also interesting.

-----

The final Influences were... (and mine was indeed 4, I guess I remembered the 5 from grabbing an extra die from the table for Black!)

Lord Greystone
Influence...
0 The Colonel
1 Dr Peasbody
2 De'Banther Smythe

Colonel Ralph Ledger-Stewart
Influence...
4 Greystone
0 Dr Peasbody
2 De'Banther Smythe

Dr Peasbody
Influence...
1 Colonel
0 Greystone
0 De'Banther Smythe

James De'Banther Smythe (just before he died)
Influence...
0 Colonel
1 Dr Peasbody
1 Greystone
-----

As you can see, getting De'Banther Smythe offed took a lot of influence off the table!

This game is shaping up really nicely - that actual play is fascinating.

I've got a small gathering over bank holiday weekend - if you get a chance to revise the text by then I'd be happy to try it out, assuming it will work with 3 players (including me!).

The rules need tweaking for three players, but it's probably doable. Here's an updated version, with an exciting new title:

The Inspector Chapel Mysteries: A Reason To Murder

I've incorporated loads of stuff into that: everything I've mentioned above, plus I've formalised Matt's idea of playing the Vicar giving the eulogy, the solicitor reading the will and so on.

I'll change those rules a bit, but they'll still be at that URL.

Graham

I'll try and get some AP done myself, since I think it's an excellent design (and very non-gamer friendly)

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Thanks Matt. In particular, how's the new Inspector Chapel role for you? Does it sound more fun than the old Detective?

Oh, and I forgot to ask: how long did the game last?

Graham

I think it looks a lot more involved in the game. In fact it might have almost swung too far the other way... Only playtesting will tell.

I think the invite/un-announced split really fits the genre though, and the ability to effectively force a particular behaviour (via chosing white or black dice) is too.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I like the name - very ITV Drama-esque :-)

Now that I am back from the US I have printed out this and looked through it.

On a first pass I think you have solved all the issues that I had with it. Playtesting should hopefully verify this -- I wonder if I will get to try it out this weekend at the wedding I'm attending?

Just one typo that leapt out. In the Second Act on the bit about "The player who rolls the single lowest die..." should read "in character" rather than "in a character".

I also spotted a typo in Best Friends when reading it at GenCon. Damn me.

Anyway, this looks really solid Graham and most of all it was enjoyable to play.

...for the Inspector is perfect.

Yes! Someone on a Story Games thread suggested it.

Thanks very much for your support. I should play the damn thing myself, really. And I will.

Graham

I'm probably going to screw the formatting with this, but what the hell.

A picture of a dice roll that validated your rules for resolving ties. The black die was unused in the background, but is sitting on its previously rolled 6. Oh, and after GenCon I now have white dice, we were forced to use red in Finland!

What are the chances?

Graham

P.S. Yes, I know what they actually are.

Greetings Mr. Walmsley.

Just a couple of thoughts about your game. First, it's really nice. I like its way to construct a mystery and how it is not another roleplaying game. It has an appealing non-gamer feel in it.

I don't know if it's a good idea to change the White Die description. The fact that we couldn't aquire it in Ropecon doesn't mean that it's a bad rule but maybe that we aren't good enough. Sometimes you just cannot reach the Sincere die in My Life With Master, but so be it: I don't think it should come easily. Above all, the original White Die gave a good boost for the story. Players had to bring in more noble causes instead of wallowing in decadence. The mood of the game seems to have changed into grim & gritty, and I don't think it was a good thing. I like to think that the murder is something unfortunate that just happens to occur rather than something that all the gentlemen are willing and capable of.

And then about the Influence. The actual play shown here is of course something the game produced, but it was still a bit of an odd job. We wiped out a lot of influence by taking out Smythe and after that my Graystone had no chance against the Colonel. Killing someone else might have made the rest of the game more balanced.

In other words, don't rush into making changes into the game after just one test run. Too much is up to the group and you cannot see what the game itself does. Well, like I knew anything about game design.