I think, as Rich commented on his own writing, its too easy for game rules to come across as very dry & technical. The bottom line is that all RPGs are a form of play (in the sense of playing a agme, not staging a play, just to avoid any confusion) and are therefore assumed to be fun or enjoyable at some level. You might argue that the rules are a means to an end and don't have to be fun or enjoyable in themselves: no-one worries about flavour text in the rules for football, darts or Monopoly!

RPGs are different, though, for the very simple reason that they are not 'games' in the broadly accepted sense of that term: they are a strange hybrid of game & novel, or game & playscript if you like. Every RPG sets out to enable the players to tell a story: if a specific game is intended to enable a specific type of story-telling, then how is that to be communicated to the readers of those rules? Would you enter into a long, technical break down of genres, themes, tones, motifs and so on... or would you include a few samples of that type of story, extracts from fictions or hypothetical play-dialogues?

Its arguable that both approaches are valid, but we're actually considering an extreme case here: a set of rules which feature no flavour text or which underplay its presence. Consider a set of rules that did the opposite: if everything was presented in terms of examples & flavour text, with actual hard rules being absent or underplayed.

I'm definitely setting myself out in the 'pro-flavour text' camp, in the same way that I am also in the 'pro-rules' camp: I don't think its a good idea to try to have one without another.

Also, adotping a less purist stance for a moment, it's a truism that many RPGs are bought for reading material: the buyer expects to be entertained by the book. So, flavour text which makes your book a good read can also increase your sales.

In the new spirit of honesty, I'm with Graham on this.

Personally I'm against fluff, especially in a competition supposedly focused on game design. When the participants have limited time to read and review everything! More than a couple of paragraphs of fluff is poor game design in that situation.

I think good flavour text can be part of the complete product, especially in explorative (simmy) games. But flavour text by it's very nature is not part of the Game (competitive interactive elements).

I think you can convey a lot of flavour in mechanics and examples of play - keeping the focus on getting to play.

There is a big distinction between flavour text and setting material for me. Setting material is part of the info needed for play.

There is a big market for flavour text and fluff - look at the Vampire Clanbooks, Dragonlance Novels and obsession with Cthulu Mythos. A lot of people like it and like it in their RPGs, so I think flavour text has it's place.

Personally I want an RPG to help me create stories not read someone else's.

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JoE
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Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Interesting. I'm of the view that good flavour text forms an intrinsic part of games design. I don't mean reams and reams of material, but good elements that contribute and help give understanding of what the game is about, the aims and so forth.

As an example, in Okhrana there is flavour text that talks about who the Okhrana keeps tabs on and what their methods for doing this are. To me, this is falvour text that is warranted, if not required, in order to let the game function. Without it, the game would be confusing and potentially unplayable.

I can see that there's the same old confusion about flavour text vs setting material. I consider pretty much all setting material to be flavour text and vice versa, the two are fairly interchangeable for me. The example given above for Okhrana is, to my mind, setting material in that it elucidates and provides information on when and where the events protrayed in the game take place and it is flavour in the sense that it provides an idea of what the game is about.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Can I ask what you mean by flavour text guys before I dive into this one. To me RPGs are made up of mechanics and setting material primarily. I suppose there are the fiction you see in most rpgs that add a feeling for the setting, is this what you mean?

To me the example malcolm gives above would be setting material. The stories he writes in his games that provide such a good feeling for what the game is about would be flavour text. Setting information is very important, whereas flavour text can add or take away depending on its use, or overuse.

Anyway more on this after some clarification.

Cheers

Iain

Lead Developer Mob Justice RPG

Check out my home brew games like 'Reel Adventures'

I would define flavour text as anything that takes place within the setting of the game, e.g.: stroies, quotes, in-game descriptions of stuff. I'd go so far as to say that many examples of play incorporate flavour text to a great or lesser extent. Flavour text is anything which gives a feel for the setting: a dry description of a street is not flavour text, a witty piece by a resident of the street would be. Some may extend flavour text out to include all non-mechanical elements. I'm not so sure on that one.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Right, going with Malcolm's defintion, which is close to my own, I would say that any rpg is made up of the following elements:

1) Setting information: This tells the player important information needed to make the game run, like how the Ohkrana operate, or the organisational structure of the Mafia etc. This does not provide 'feeling' but information as to the 'place' the game occurs in.

2) Flavour text: This is the stories you put in, the quotes from ingame or out of game characters that provide a 'feeling' for how the game should be run. It should evoke emotion over facts.

3) System information: This tells the player how the mechanics of the game operate.

4) Examples: These come in a grey area between the above 3. Depending on how they are written they can reinforce setting info, provide feeling and explain mechanics.

I think this is right. Flavour text provides how the game 'feels' which is important in any kind of RPG. However overuse of it can make the text feel more like a novel or fluffy when the reader wants to get to the facts. I will try and dig up some examples of both.

Cheers

Iain

Lead Developer Mob Justice RPG

Check out my home brew games like 'Reel Adventures'

I think any game that overbalances one over the other two will feel it. What about a game like Tribe8? It has system, but then all the setting material is presented as flavour text, which is cool at first but starts to get a bit awkward when you're trying to find out the bare facts about the setting.

I'm not a huge fan of flavour text, especially not game fiction. Coming across game fiction in a book is a sign that reads "skip me, I'm padding."

But I do like my setting to be evocative, and I think that can be accomplished in its own right without flavour text (if indeed the two are separate things). Look at Polaris or Nine Worlds. Evocative setting material in their own rights.

Of course I was about to say Dictionary of Mu, but then realised it would unravel everything I've just said - I suppose its a good example of a book that is entirely flavour text!

This topic has me examining my game notes. I also agree that there is a difference between flavor text and setting information. Now I have to figure out if I'm putting too much of the former into it or not.

It seems flavor text is as needed as seasonings for food. You don't have to have it, but the meal can be improved with it. Also, you can over season your food and ruin it.

That's the question this thread has opened up for me: am I killing my game with condiments?

The seed of my game has always been my fiction, so flavor text is a must. I think a well-written RPG can do something sneaky by mixing the setting information with the flavor text (though this sometimes isn't the way to go). Castle Falkenstein is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. For those of you who haven't read it, you have the narrator laying out the world to the reader through journal notes. In its corebook, the tactic worked really well. In its supplements, I think the tactic gets overused and I find myself getting really bored wading through the disjointed notes of a fictitious journal.

Todd Cash

My feeling is that flavour text is not games design, as much as atmospheric illustrations are not.

Writing flavour text is an aspect of being a games writer. Producing flavour/atmospheric art is an aspect of being a games illustrator.

Creating rules, mechanics, currency and procedures are aspects of a games designer.

I might even be persuaded that examples of rules are the work of a writer.

I think Flavour Text if short, concise and properly 'highlighted' (by having outside the flow of main text) is an integral part of Games Design.

I see the rules text as being the bones of the game and the flavour text as being the flesh.

Separating Rules and Presentation in this way, I find not only makes a Game easier to read and understand but easier to reference both rules and examples of setting feel during play.

I also find paradoxically that many games that try to do with out flavour text inadvertently add it back in by having colorful terms for rules and become mudded and confused as a result.

Regards

;O)Newt