The Flaming Cobra page at Mongoose is here.

Hey Matt,

Thanks for posting the info about FC up here. I'm sure it will prove to be interesting to many people and may well provoke and interesting and lively debate.

Would you be able to tell us more (in very broad terms) about your payment strategy, how much an author can expect to get in terms of percentages of cover price and so on. That kind of info would really help people attempting to make an informed decision about whether to publish themselves or approach Mongoose with a vie.w to partnership.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Hi guys,

Okay, some very broad figures :)

Let's take a typical 128 page softback, black and white interior. You submit us the file, we take care of printing and distribution.

We normally price such a book at $24.95 (I'll use worse case figures for everything here, which means selling to a US distributor - things get better when selling to a UK distributor or, of course, direct).

With an average discount, we receive $9.98. Depending on the run and various other factors, deducted costs are likely to be in the region of $2.50. or thereabouts, leaving $7.48 profit.

We would normally split this 50/50, so you receive $3.74 per book sold in the US. If it were sold through our web site, you would receive $11.22 per book sold.

Again, under normal circumstances, you receive this per actual book sold, without having to hit a certain total first, so you are earning from the first book we sell.

Now, the next question, of course, is how many will we sell? :) Well, that depends greatly on the actual book and, for a brand new line, it is always difficult to predict (once you have done 2-3 books through us, we can be _very_ accurate in our predictions).

However, we normally give examples on first month sales, as this is the period of time in which you will want to cover all your own costs (and start looking forward to profits!).

If you sent us A N Other D20 book (say), we would not be hopeful in the current market. That said, we would be disappointed if it did not sell at least 400 copies in the first month (400 x your take of $3.74 = $1,496 = your maximum budget to produce the book, being sensible).

However, send us something cracking, and the sky will be the limit. While I cannot talk exact figures, something like, say, Cthulhutech and its supplements will easily pass the magic 1,000 mark in this time frame (in fact, CTech did that in its first week!). So, 1,000 x $3.74 = $3,740 = a healthy start to the life of the book, and here is to many more sold in the first year!

Those are just a few rough (very rough!) figures. There are all sorts of things we can do to increase the profitability of books, and we can certainly help a one or two man part-time operation become full-time - that is certainly the goal of our current leading FC members.

Thanks for the further information, Matt. Stuff like that is really useful. Just a couple of further questions that spring to mind:

Who bears the cost for artwork, layout and so forth? From the information made available so far, it looks like these costs must be taken on by the imprint looking to be published by Mongoose, is this the case?

In terms of setting the cover price, who has authority over this? Is it mandated by yourselves by the authors, in negotiation or by some other means?

In an effort to give people more detail in the hope that they can make an informed decision, I've started off a thread looking at prospective costs for self-publication, using some very rough figures for Hot War.

The thread can be found here.

I think this provides a good comparison between two quite different approaches to getting your game to market.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

1. Yes, the studio/publishers takes on writing, art and layout costs - we need to see a print ready PDF. That said, we can give advice on what you should be paying, and where you should be looking. In our experience, smaller studios that do not do such work themselves end up paying way too much for these services.

2. Ultimately (at this time, at least!), the studio has final say on format and pricing. However, we again give best advice on this, and our current partners have, umm, learned to listen :) Ultimately, as I said earlier, our role is to bring in as much revenue for you as we can, and ensure you have maximum profitability.

Thanks for posting this Matt - it's an interesting alternative perspective.

What avenues into the market do you think you can help small-press publishers reach that they might not be able to do on their own? And how much marketing do you do for the imprints beyond advertising in your own magazine?

We (indie publishers) have a habit of dismissing ideas like this, but I think they deserve fairly serious consideration.

By selling through Mongoose, you halve your profit per book (because you're splitting it with the esteemed Mr Sprange). But you're likely to sell twice as many, while relieving yourself of the need to do all the marketing and stuff yourself.

It's probably a pretty good deal for certain products.

Graham

You're actually getting way less than half, because the majority of copies are actually being sold through distro rather than direct (or semi direct via IPR/Lulu).

Not that I'm saying people should dismiss this or anything, just that, well, that distribution channel really does eat a lot of the cover price.

I think the idea that his model can make someone a full time designer is a bit, well, I'm not seeing the numbers work for that.

Lets say you're selling that 1000 copies of each book you put out through Mongoose. You're looking at Matt's $3,740 for the book. We're going to assume that you're selling those 1000 copies. "Long Tail" aside, we all know how this stuff works: most of the books are sold in the first month or so and then sales drop off to the occasional re-order. So I think it's reasonable to assume that the $3,740 what you can expect to earn from a given book over it's lifespan.

That's about £1,900 at the current exchange rate.

Assuming you want to live off this, how long do you think you can life off £1,900? If you want to make minimum wage, which is about £11,000 PA for a typical working week, which I suspect is significantly lower than most of the self publishing designers reading this are earning right now, you'd need to produce over 5 books a year to hit that figure.

Except that you'll also need to pay for the artwork and layout. Which has to come out of that $3,740/£1,900. Chances are you could spend several hundred (dollars) on art and layout, bringing that $3,740 down to, lets say $3,000/£1,500?

Taking that into account, you're looking at needing 7+ books a year (one every 2 months) to hit that £11,000 PA income. This means you have to publish (roughly) a book every 2 months. That's to make minimum wage.

Obviously you might get a massive release like Cthuluh Tech or similar, but I think that these figures put some perspective on the whole "writing games for a living" thing. People do it, but understand exactly how much you're looking at per book before you embark on such a venture.

Some quick questions, Matt.

When do you pay out? Every month? Every quarter? How long after I supply the print files will the book be out? How soon after release do I get my first cheque?

If I decide to cease publication and we have 1000 books in distro, then surely they are out there? What would happen then? I assume there is some contractual clause to protect you (and me) in such cases?

Oh, and I remember trying to pick up CthulhuTech at GenCon last year on request from a pal , but it wasn't there by then though. So I see CT as a highly visible game, when other games will be less well known and IMHO will sell well short of it.

1. The power of FC is through distribution (and Mongoose's name, of course). We push through all distributors in the US, UK and Europe as a matter of course, and it is fair to say that any book produced by Mongoose will get picked up, _because_ it comes from Mongoose. To date, we have not had a distributor refuse a book! We also reach smaller customers in countries such as Australia, South Africa, Japan, and so on.

2. Most of the marketing we do takes place at the distribution and retail level - half the battle has always been getting books on shelves. If you can do that, most of the battle has been won.

3. Finally, don't underestimate Signs & Portents. Orders for CTech jumped noticeably when we started publishing articles for it. We currently get an average of 60,000 downloads a month for the new issue (and it carries on for months after). That sort of run is comparable to Dragon's final days, and we give free access to it for FC partners.

>>>Not that I'm saying people should dismiss this or anything, just that, well, that distribution channel really does eat a lot of the cover price.

The benefit, of course, is that distributors buy books in their hundreds, not singles :)

>>>Assuming you want to live off this, how long do you think you can life off £1,900? If you want to make minimum wage, which is about £11,000 PA for a typical working week, which I suspect is significantly lower than most of the self publishing designers reading this are earning right now, you'd need to produce over 5 books a year to hit that figure.

I'll go you one better - aim for 10 or 12 books a year. Suddenly, £1,900, when it comes in every month, does not seem so bad. . . Plus, you are doing something you enjoy.

In practice, it gets easier as time goes on, as you have residual benefits creeping in from back catalogue sales (which, if you make your mark, will form a sizeable portion of your revenue) and electronic sales. Put another way, we did not start all that differently from any of you seven years ago, and our electronic sales now pretty much pay for everyone's salary every month (and Mongoose staff are not badly paid at all :)).

Basically, through FC, we can show you how to achieve this. It is not a get rich scheme, but we can channel hard work into the right directions, plus leverage our presence in the market to give you a leg up. And, of course, you can leave FC to fly on your own at any time. . .

>>>Except that you'll also need to pay for the artwork and layout. Which has to come out of that $3,740/£1,900. Chances are you could spend several hundred (dollars) on art and layout, bringing that $3,740 down to, lets say $3,000/£1,500?

We can show partners how to keep their art affordable, and within budget.

>>>Taking that into account, you're looking at needing 7+ books a year (one every 2 months) to hit that £11,000 PA income. This means you have to publish (roughly) a book every 2 months. That's to make minimum wage.

You are not wrong - hard work is required. If you _want_ to go fulltime doing RPGs and related games, we would expect you to _want_ to work hard enough to achieve it.

We did :)

On the other hand, if you just want to get your books into as many hands as possible with no hassle after making print ready files, while you get on with the rest of your life, the second income can be attractive.

>>>Obviously you might get a massive release like Cthuluh Tech

Might? Why not aim for it? CTech was going to be big before a single book was printed - that was why we approached Wildfire and offered our services. As for your projects, we will happily give you our honest opinion on their viability, and what they can achieve in the market, based on our seven years of experience. You can decide after that whether you need to adjust your plans or not.

>>>When do you pay out? Every month? Every quarter? How long after I supply the print files will the book be out? How soon after release do I get my first cheque?

We pay every quarter.

For new partners, we prefer to wait four months after receiving the files before going to print - this gives us maximum impact with distributors, and gives us a fighting chance to get the book into the US book trade (for which, incidentally, we can offer a zero returns rate).

After release, you will get your first cheque on the first quarter day.

>>>If I decide to cease publication and we have 1000 books in distro, then surely they are out there? What would happen then? I assume there is some contractual clause to protect you (and me) in such cases?

If there are 1,000 books in distribution, then they would already have been paid for, and your cheque will already be on its way!

However, if we still have books in our warehouse, we reserve the right to sell them through - you still get your percentage on each one, however, and we keep very tight stock levels. Unless it has truly bombed (which has yet to happen to us, I hasten to add), you will not be in that position for long.

>>>Oh, and I remember trying to pick up CthulhuTech at GenCon last year on request from a pal , but it wasn't there by then though. So I see CT as a highly visible game, when other games will be less well known and IMHO will sell well short of it.

So, get them well known :) Wildfire was very wily in their forum presence, giving people peeks at what was happening - by the time it came to be released, the only people who needed convincing were distributors. Which is where we came in.

Now, CTech was not a one-off, any more than were, say, the Slayer's Guides or Quintessentials. Anyone could have come up with any of those ideas. Why not you chaps?

Once you have that nugget, all that is left is execution. And, let me remind you, we can help at all stages with FC - we can advise whether your initial idea is 'it', whether you are hitting all the notes on art, text and layout, what you should be doing on forums and (especially) with S&P.

Oh, one other question: Size.

Do you have a minimum size that a book would need to be to be a Flaming Cobra book?

All FC books will be Letter sized, right? And what is the minimum/maximum page count you think would be viable?

In my head I see books like "Spirit of the Century" and "Burning Expires" as being firmly in the right word/page count for a book going into distro.

(Personally, my books are much shorter than this -- by some distance -- so I'm assuming they would not work as FC books for this reason. Or is something "Slayers Guide..." sized viable?)

Bloody size queen. Does it really matter?

Graham

I'd say that the twelve books a year is probably a decent estimate for someone wanting to make a living on this.

However... (you knew there was one coming)

That £1,900 estimate is based upon Cthulhu Tech. CT is a sizeable product, and I wouldn't be surprised if it tops 200,000 words in size. Do that in a month? Even if you took no days out even at weekends that's around 6,500 words a day just for the writing. Then you've got layout, preparing the PDF for print, fiddling with the artwork and arranging to have it produced by freelancers and so forth. That's one hell of a lot of work. CT isn't an average Indie release at all, it's based on a very traditional RPG model with high production values, extensive background and very in-depth rules, giving it broader mass appeal. It's Indie on the basis that it's creator owned, not because it reflects the style common to the Indie gaming scene.

In short, I doubt very strongly that it would be possible to earn a living wage on the basis of publishing through Flaming Cobra, or any other Indie venue for that matter. This is not an issue with FC itself, more one with the market in general.

With this out of the way, there is one definite major advantage to publishing your stuff through the Cobra, and it's a pretty good one: Colour. If there's one thing that costs to do PoD, it's full colour books. Cthulhu Tech was full colour throughout. If Flaming Cobra can realistically produce all of their products in colour, that makes it probably the only no-cash-up-front option that is economically viable for someone with an artwork-heavy, full colour game. Not many Indie developers can afford to get colour art of course, but if you can then it's worth considering.

Now, if only Mongoose could find some way of providing an art budget up-front so that us poor designers could afford to make a product that looked as presentable as those from the big companies, we might really start getting somewhere ;)

Ash

>>>In short, I doubt very strongly that it would be possible to earn a living wage on the basis of publishing through Flaming Cobra, or any other Indie venue for that matter.

It's hard - and I would not recommend anyone give up their day job immediatly. However, it is possible. It all depends on a) how many people there are in your group (mouths to feed) and b) what kind of salary you are looking to replace.

BTW, those figures we were quoting weren't for CTech - they were for a typical 128pp softback.

Taking the worst case figures for A N Other D20 book (you'll have to scroll up a bit :)), you are looking at something like £700/month - not the best living in the world, especially if you are outsourcing any aspect of production. However, it gives a healthy baseline that will grow when you a) produce another title and b) start seeing revenue from back catalogue books.

If you are prepared to work hard and cut costs with a savagery, making a living from this is certainly _possible_. You may not be driving an Aston Martin in the first year (I am going to sound like a real wanker now, but it took three years to get my Jaguar :)), but you will have a viable business. Everything else can follow on from that (and there are a lot of 'residuals' that come come from maintaining an existing business, such as licences, translations, etc).

>>>With this out of the way, there is one definite major advantage to publishing your stuff through the Cobra, and it's a pretty good one: Colour. If there's one thing that costs to do PoD, it's full colour books. Cthulhutech was full colour throughout. If Flaming Cobra can realistically produce all of their products in colour, that makes it probably the only no-cash-up-front option that is economically viable for someone with an artwork-heavy, full colour game.

Actually, I disagree - unless it is an absolute necessity, we always recommend b/w. Look at the new printing of CTech as an example. We have a huge discussion about this with Wildfire, who were deeply committed to colour. However, when they started analysing the figures we sent them, and saw the only way to maintain a viable business was to go b/w, they soon agreed. We _can_ do colour through FC, but we rarely recommend it. The costs are just too high for a reasonable return and, as I have said before, the stated aim of FC is to make our partners as rich as possible.

>>>Now, if only Mongoose could find some way of providing an art budget up-front so that us poor designers could afford to make a product that looked as presentable as those from the big companies, we might really start getting somewhere ;)

Well, funny you should say that :)

In the past, we have released some of our art as Open Content, selling it as PDFs. We have a MASSIVE back catalogue of art. Can't see any reason not to loan it out to FC partners. . .

Hi there,

Not all FC books need be Letter size - indeed, we are talking to Crafty at the moment about a very different style of book.

Minimum page count, well 24pp, depending on the material. Maximum. . . Spycraft weighs in at nearly 500. Sky is the limit really. What is more important is the discussion we have about costs vs. revenue, which we do with our partners for every new format of product.

As for Slayer's Guide-style books and their viability. . . they worked for us :)