I have to say that from my experience with D&H, something that you may think is magnificent and 'done' is actually a steaming pile of disjointed game turd that needs to be totally rethought and reworked and tested and tested and tested. But that could just be me!

Seriously though, it's your cash. Personally I would rather take the time to make sure it is done right rather than rush something out and then regret the bad publicity, disappointed customers and general waves of self-loathing!

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I am sorry Ash but you are barking if you think you can put out a game without playtesting it. It is irresponsible as a designer to do such a thing . You may think it is great the way it is but, in my experience, something always changes as soon as it hits the hands of actual players.

As Neil says you need to have patience but in the end the choice is yours. Don't you already have product for GE?

Cheers

Iain

Mob Justice now available!

'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.

Errrr, I think you guys have got the wrong end of the stick. I'm not asking if I should put it out without playtesting it. I'm asking if there's enough time to get some playtesting done.

Ash

Realistically, no.

You are looking at 4 weeks max and that barely leaves any time for rewtires, editing, proof reading or printing.

Currently Playing: Cold City, Pendragon
Currently Testing: Duty and Honour

Yeah, I understood what you meant. Can you go through the playtest cycle in time for printing and delivery to get your game in for Games Expo. All of this without a ready made demo team and a two week window if you are professionally printing and a three-four week one if you are going to self-printed ashcan.

Even if you had a team playing every other night with you revising your text on the nights inbetween, it would still seem a little extreme. There's not really any time for reflection. Nor is there time to get other points of view from further afield. If you come across something fundamentally flawed, the entire thing will come off the rails.

And thats before you have to proofread and edit the script, lay it out and send it off to the printers, get a proof back, re-edit and send for final print.

As I said before, you *could* do it - but whether it would show you or your work in the best light would be questionable.

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I think what you'd gain in sales from the event by having it out would be lost in problems with the game system that only emerge after a lengthy playtest, and the bad publicity/feedback/gaming that would bring.

This is what's known as the Gencon rush - the rush by designers to get a game out in time for Gencon in the US. It's rarely worth it. We quite often see something similar here with Dragonmeet too.

You'd be far better spending the time on getting the game right, taking longer to playtest it and making sure it's all just perfect before release. You can also build up more of a buzz in the meantime by posting playtest reports and discussing it in public.

I'm less hot on lots of playtesting than some people; but then again I've tended to do stuff where the rules basics have already been developed over time. If you're in that position, you're just checking whether tweaks work.

Maybe the best idea for you is to bring a partially completed version and show it to people to get feedback and as a sort of pre-marketing. Which is kind of what I did with Jaws at Dragonmeet, though only in the sense of showing off the visuals, not in actually giving it a run, and with delays in following it up. You could do it better.

By the way, if Gregor sees this - you should totally do this with Cantare. Get a Lulu mock-up or something.

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

Following on from Tim, if it were a D20 or PDQ or somesuch reworking, you might get away with less playtesting, if the tweaks weren't major. I'd still say the window between now and expo is still way too small.

But, and it's a big but, there's a bigger issue than merely can you get it done? Remember you'll be on your trial run on the booth, and that people are trying to gauge how "on message" you are. Rushing something out with minimal playtesting isn't what we're about. Do you really think everybody at the booth will bust a gut to sell your game if they think it's a rush job? If they believe in it, they'll sell it hard, and you benefit.

Plus, if you do sell it, and people who buy it notice it was a rushed job, and doesn't work in play as intended, we all lose out if the CE gets a rep for poorly polished product. Playtesting is one of the few areas the smallguy can shine in compared to the big companies (who frankly don't do enough) as we can make the time.

I do understand the urge though. I was considering rushing Pulp! (a miniatures game I've been revising since 2004) out for Expo in print form. The imminent release of Indy 4 made it really tempting for grabbing some zeitgeist. It won't be done though.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Well, it's not a reworking in spirit any more than any RPG is a reworking of old ideas. It's just a very, very simple roll-over system with a basic combat mechanic similar to a previous game where highest roller causes damage to one chosen target. It's not complex in the slightest else I wouldn't have bothered to ask the question in the first place.

You'd not said that.

Not that I think it matters. This isn't much time to get productive playtesting done. Matt's post above is a good explanation why.

Complex or not, playtesting is still required, Contenders is simple, yet went through rigorous playtesting. Best Friends likewise. Simplicity in mechanics can often be deceptive. Complex or complicated, playtesting is still required, especially if you are going to be charging money for the product.

I'd suggest that your tie in the run up to GE would be better spent perfecting demos for your existing games, rather than rushing out a new product.

Matt makes excellent points.

Cheers
Malc

Contested Ground Studios

And this is what I'm doing for both Lost Gods and Pulp!, is to have a polished version of the game and run demos/events as marketing.

Folks who play a con game and get invested are a great source of playtesting groups, feedback and support. Plus it'll get some groundswell of interest going. Plus such events can be your playtesting.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Thats exactly what I have done with D&H, to an extent - I've taken my time on the CE stall to run open playtest sessions once I was confident the game wasn't going to collapse mid-session through some horrendous broken mechanic. It worked really well at Conpulsion and tied the game into the banter around the stall in such a way that it really was money well spent. I'll be doing the same at Games Expo to a greater extent (with pseudo-ashcans on hand for people to thumb through as well). I'm hoping that I can get something sorted with the Polish Lancers who are going to be onsite as well, but thats another matter.

Anyway, yes, playtest through the stall - it works.

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/