...your suggested questions seem fair.

This has turned into an exhausting Internet argument: I'll step out, now, and leave the other CE people finish the timetable. It's not too far off completion.

Graham

I want to run Piledrivers, if I have to choose.

From the very first time IGT was mentioned I stated I wanted to run P&P and Contenders - lots of other people said they'd run Contenders. Then when we get the first draft of the timetable there's no Contenders. How did this happen?

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

I don't know, Joe. Up until now, I've not been involved in the organisation, I've just stepped in because I see the entire thing going down the toilet.

Would you be willing to run P&P in the current slot and Contenders in the bar on Saturday afternoon? That gives you a slot on the tables and a chance to run both of the games you'd like to see running at Conpulsion. Or, we could swap P&P and Contenders around, with P&P in the bar.

Which of these options suits you?

Cheers
Malc

Contested Ground Studios

I could run P&P in the bar I suppose.

It seems unfair that David gets two slots with one game though - what's the rationale for this?

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Thanks Joe. The bar option is a default, if we can sort it out so that both games run in the main area, then cool.

I'm waiting on David to respond to the question in my initial post to see if we have a little wriggle-room here. As for the rationale, I don't know how it originally came about. As I stated, I've been at a remove from the IGT this year, for obvious reasons.

Cheers
Malc

Contested Ground Studios

Joe, I'm anxious not to argue, but since you asked why your games weren't scheduled...

Although you might have mentioned somewhere that you wanted to run both your games, you didn't mention in the thread where the Indie Games Track was being organised. So they didn't go into the timetable.

The people who offered to run Contenders did so as part of Games On Demand, not the Indie Games Track. So they didn't go into the Indie Games Track timetable, either.

All I did in compiling the first timetable, by the way, was take the games on offer and put them into slots. It was fairly mechanical.

It sounds as though you and Malcolm are nearing a solution, which is good.

Graham

Sorry it's taken so long to respond to this, Malcolm - it's been a long, busy day.

Yeah, sure, I'll run Shock. The main reason I requested the slot in the first place is that Shock has delivered really great play for me every time I've played it, and while I'll be available for GOD Shock, I wanted to be sure of running it at least once during the Con.

This whole thing has been very up and down, but I'm currently looking forward to Conpulsion. Yay!

...so once it's done we can all go back to being happy campers.

I will say that, given the swing towards CE stuff, I may swap Covenant out (and use GOD to run it) and run PTA instead. I want a healthy mix in IGT.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

That's great, cheers.

Well, that's a very selfless offer, but I'd still be keen to see Covenant there, running in the IGT. As I said before, I think those with published game should endeavour to run those games, given the opportunity. However, I understand your desire to see a healthy mix of games and appreciate that.

So, are you absolutely sure you want to run PTA rather than Covenant? It may be possible to slot in games of both, with a bit of tweaking.

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Ooops, sorry, didn't see this till now

I had two slots because I volunteered to do so, and someone suggested that I should, I can pass on that if the schedule demands, though I will run it as GOD instead if needed.

I originally offered to be doing CE/IGT full time this year, and be on the stall or running games all the time. Since Solipsist is the only one I felt qualified to run at the time, I offered to do it twice. I could probably do IaWA, but I *suspect* Vincent will be doing that himself :)

If you want to give me time off to play in other people's games instead, and the like, then that's fine.

As you say though, Solipsist is being launched at the Con, the only one of our games that is, so I'd like a place to be able to run it both days if possible. Failing that I'd prefer to run it in a scheduled slot on Sunday rather than early Saturday, because people won't know what it is in the first slot.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Thanks for the responses, I think we are achieving some sort of consensus now. I think David makes a good case for having 2 games of Solipsist. From the CE point of view, it's our new game at the con and we should be doing as much as we can to promote it. If that means a giving it two slots in the schedule, then I'm cool with that.

David: I've re-arranged things a little so that Solipsist runs in the afternoons on both days, thus giving you time in the morning to pitch it to people on the booth and so forth. Is this suitable to you?

Joe: I've speculatively put P&P in the schedule in the bar on Saturday afternoon and Contenders into the table 1 slot on Sunday morning. Are you comfortable with this?

Matt: Running PTA is great, but I'd also really like to see Covenant getting run in a scheduled slot. Would you be comfortable with running PTA on the Saturday morning and Covenant in the bar area on Sunday afternoon (these can be swapped around if you think that would be better)?

Could the people reading this thread please give those I've asked questions of a chance to respond before pitching in with any comments they might have. Helps avoid clutter and we can get this thing nailed down ASAP. The proposed schedule is below.

Cheers
Malcolm

Saturday

Table 1

Morning: PTA with Matt
Afternoon: Shock with Pooka
Evening: Dead of Night with Scott

Table 2
Morning: Duty & Honour playtest with Neil
Afternoon: Solipsist with David
Evening: Hot War playtest with Neil

Bar
Afternoon: Piledrivers & Powerbombs with Joe

Sunday

Table 1
Morning: Contenders with Joe
Afternoon: Solipsist with David

Table 2
Morning: Mob Justice with Iain
Afternoon: A Need To Kill playtest with Graham

Bar
Afternoon: Covenant with Matt

Contested Ground Studios

I think both afternoons will be fine. The only reason for Saturday morning is that Victoria will arrive in the afternoon with my stepson, who I've not seen since Christmas, but I think that is okay.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Hey, it's no worries to shift the Saturday session back to the morning if that is more convenient to you. I'm sure Matt will be amenable to running PTA in the afternoon slot. Matt?

Cheers
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

No no, I talked it over with Victoria, the afternoon is fine :)

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Honestly? No, I'm not comfortable, I'm quite hacked off.
But fuck it let's move on.

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Then what can we do to make you more comfortable? What would be your ideal solution to this situation?

Cheers
Malc

Contested Ground Studios

Matt has stated that he would prefer Covenant to be part of the GOD, so it will be coming off the timetable on that basis.

Thanks
Malcolm

Contested Ground Studios

Drop a Solipsist for Best Friends/Dead of Night/MJ/Cold City/Umlaut/MlwM.

OR fold the second Solipsist slot into the 24min RPG challenge, that would be quite good can it be part of the run in to this years event?

As it is I think it sets an uncomfortable precedent - if I rush a game out for a con will I get twice as many slots as everyone else? It's falling into an indie treadmill trap we should be focusing on the long tail model. I also think it's unlikely an unknown game will fill two slots.

Also to make me comfortable I'd like a life sized cut out of you Malc next to the booth. A few pre-recorded phrases and we'd feel like you were with us.

"Make more dossiers Paul."
"Shut the fuck up Iain."
"I'm being deprotagonized!"
"The rest of CGS were unsure about Avenues and Alleyways but I knew it was a winner."

ahhh

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JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

Hey All

This looks almost finished.

David, I think it's better we run Solipsist only once on the IGT. Whether a game is new or old is irrelevant, really. If there's demand for it (and I think there might be) then I can assure you that there are plenty of tables for an on-demand game of it near the stall.

So, I suggest we drop the Solipsist from the Saturday afternoon and make that P&P.

This also means that we don't have to run IGT games in the bar.

And, David, if you were to run a GOD session of IaWA I think that would be popular. Vincent may run a session, but I couldn't say for sure. He may find his time taken up with other things going on.

Gregor, that does mean that David loses his second slot in the schedule, while Joe gains a second slot. Much though I'd like Joe to run Piledrivers, that doesn't quite seem right.

Look, if I move A Need To Kill to the bar (or other available table), does that help?

Graham

Phone call from Gregor and I'll trust him to sort him out.

Graham

Argh! I'm feeling I have no idea what we are doing. I agree with the suggestion that this sort of thread would be better off the front page, or even in private!

If people feel bad about me having two sessions on the schedule, that's fine, give me one. I'd prefer to keep the Saturday afternoon one though. Thomas will be at the airport then, as opposed to at the con on Sunday.

We really (sorry Gregor) need to decide what we are running the IGT for. To sell games? To show people the games we like the most? To show people the games we think they will like the most? To show people the games we think they want the most? To show our best games? To show our newest games? There are loads of options and I don't think we can do them all at once.

It seems pretty straight to me

CE Games are a subset of Indie Games
We have an Indie Games Track
We have a CE stall
The IGT is being ran by the people on the CE Stall
The CE stall - and the tables on which the IGT are being ran - are being paid for by the people on the CE Stall

If the Games Track is wholesale indie and we are extending the mutualism to the rest of the indie games community to demo their games, using our money, rather than our games - thats cool

If the Games Track is a Collective Endeavour indie track then we run Collective Endeavour games.

Essentially I think the confusion is coming from having people who are paying for the right to have a promotional space also (apparently) running a 'track' of the convention which should really happen anyway regardless of whether the Collective are doing it anyway.

Thats where I see the tension

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

The way I put it to Gregor on the phone was similar, that there is a tension between "CE as a group to promote indie gaming" and "CE as a group to promote it's member's games". The later brings financial implications with it. The games that get promoted and played will probably sell better, so it begins to matter what gets run more than it might do if we are just promoting a family of games in general.

I'd be happy with a model where each member can only have one game run from out of their games in a scheduled slot if we have scheduled slots.

Of course I'd probably be happy not holding to that rule either, but if people pay to be on the stall, and games played lead to sales then some people may get more or less from the investment in the stall than others?

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

David, why don't you ask Sandy to schedule a game of Solipsist on the regular schedule?

Graham

Yes, i might do that

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

I can see the potential for confusion and speculation here. What follows is the actual case as I can see it.

• There is a "Collective Endeavour" booth, which is bought into by some members of the group. Those buying in have books on the booth and they sell them and provide demos for those games. At Conpulsion and Dragonmeet those demo tables have been free, at Games Expo they are an additional expense. The cost of the booth is solely borne by the people buying into the booth.
• The only games explicitly tied to the CE booths as sales activities/promotion are booth demos.
• We have, on occasion, run CE and non-CE games as part of general RPG schedules, with some success (and sometimes failure, see Dragonmeet 2007). Sometimes these have promoted games for sale, but they aren't paid for or even necessarily run by the publisher.
• At Conpulsion, since 2006, there has been an "Indie Games Track", which was started by Malcolm Craig (from what I can remember, along with Per and Joe Murphy). Malcolm then became a prominent member of the Collective Endeavour, and has always been an even more prominent part of Contested Ground Studios. Separate from his subsequent involvement in the Collective Endeavour, or his continual involvement with CGS, Malcolm organised an event with other local people interested in Indie Games as a community activity. Historically we have provided a sampler of differing games, but most importantly games that enthuse us. We have not been in the mindset of second-guessing what people want. We have been doing games we want to run and play. Since, essentially, we are saying "these are games we like and we hope you like them too" rather than "these are games we have for sale, buy them".
• We have run Indie Games Tracks at other cons, including people like Adam Kelly organising one at GaelCon, which is clearly not in the UK or under the remit of the Collective Endeavour.
• This site, though, is a useful web forum to organise these things are there is a large crossover between people helping organise these things, people willing to help out, people willing to play those games and people reading, and posting to, these forums. That why you'll see posts here about them.
• Finally, with respect to Conpulsion this year there is a large area of tables available for free play. The con has specifically allocated some of them to the "Indie Games Track", and some for "Games on Demand". Some other tables in the balcony are also available for (short or longer) demos for anyone on the Collective Endeavour booth, Stewart Wilson (for Aeternal Legends), and for Black Library if they are there. Other vendors and attendees may also use these tables for games. They are all free. No one is paying a cent for any of them.

As far as this IGT track goes... I think it's done. We have a schedule and time is marching on. I will pull together what I think is the final thing and run it past everyone by e-mail before committing to the Conpulsion website and programme. It's been stressful, sure, but I think we are there (and thanks to EVERYONE who has posted on it).

This year we have a good mix of games and hopefully something for any interested con attendees to try out.

To Graham: I guess we didn't see the wood for the trees. I wouldn't blink if any "indie game" was on the main schedule. I guess the desire of those of us who like Indie Games is to mark them apart and make an event of them together. That's kind of been the way of the IGT over the last few years. It's also worth noting that the IGT has never been the same thing twice.

I think the very first thing (apart from reading Malc's first post in this thread - please do that, I have a feeling a few people skipped it) to make absolute clear is to treat CE and IGT as two separate things. IGT is not to promote or sell CE games, it's to promote indie game enthusiasm. Not for playtest. Not for selling your game. Playtest with playtesters, or in teh GOD, and sell your games at the CE booth.

The last thing I want to see is people bickering over places in the IGT because "oh, he's got one slot more than me" or whatFUCKINGever - then the IGT truly sleeps with the fishes.

Everything is this sad, sad confused tale of trying to 'organise' the IGT on Conpulsion stems from this misconception. It's been painful to watch. Painful.

Not that I'm particularly interested in discussing this, really. If you as a group decide to kill off the Conpulsion IGT by making it CEGT, be my guest. I'll just transport my enthusiam somewhere else.

Per
http://darkplaces.squarespace.com

Well gee Per if we'd known it was upsetting You then we'd have played much nicer!
;D

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JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

I'm not angry, merely disappointed ;p

Per
http://darkplaces.squarespace.com