I think Malc has hit it on the head with the three types of customers there, seems a perfectly good way to think about it. What follows is my own thoughts from the cons I have attended.

Within those categories though we are seeing people who want to talk about games design coming to the booth and it is essential, I believe, that we offer them a friendly ear and solid advice if that is what they want. If we can strike up a rapport with these customers they are more likely to listen to our recommendations as to what games they should look at, buy, to get some design experience.

The casual browser, and the determined browser to a lesser extent, is drawn to the booth by the pretty/ bright covers a lot of the time, the majority drifting towards a|state, best friends and to a lesser extent Mob Justice.

The experienced customer who knows us well will be interested in the new things on the stall so making sure we emphasise those products over the older games at cons I think is something we can do going forwards.

There are of course the customers who have no idea who we are, though we are seeing less of those as time goes on, and it is imperative that their first impression of the stall is one of a friendly, welcoming atmophere and interesting games to play and buy.

Whatever we do going forwards the relaxed atmopshere we have succeeded in creating at most cons I think does us well. I would not want to see us becoming some kind of crazy pressure selling kind of group.

I have more thoughts on what we can do from here on in but I will save those for after other people have pitched in.

Cheers

Iain

Mob Justice now available!

'The Giant Brain':Small games, big ideas.

Has this languished enough for other people to comment now?

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I think it's good to remember what we're all about. I'd describe this as: giving self-published games a platform to be sold.

Personally, I feel the booth should be sales-focused. I think the message should be: "Here's some great games: play them and buy them!".

To that end, I'd prefer design discussion wasn't a core part of the booth message. I'd like the booth to be about play and sales.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think we should talk about design in forums, in seminars, online and informally. We should be all about encouraging new designers. We should be completely available, on the booth, to encourage people who want to self-publish.

But I'm not keen on that being part of the booth's message. For example, I didn't much like the Dragonmeet tagline: "Play. Discuss. Design. Publish.". It beautifully describes the Collective Endeavour in general: but I don't think that should be what the booth is about.

There you go. Contradictory opinion, hope that's OK.

A couple of other things. I'd really like a new crop of games on the stall next Dragonmeet. Last year, we had the reliable old guard, but not new exciting stuff. I'd love to see Duty and Honour, Solipsist, Umlaut and A Need For A Title on the stall at Dragonmeet. I think it'd do us good (and it'd do the old games good, too, to have new points of interest).

Also, I have a sort of wild idea. It's probably impracticable, but I wanted to put it out there, because I think it's exciting, at least for me. In a few years time, I'd quite like the Collective Endeavour to be the Primary Sponsor of Dragonmeet.

It's probably completely impracticable. But I like it as an idea and as an indication of the way to go forward. I'd like to be about supporting the good cons: both the play-focussed ones and the sales-focussed ones. I think we should be all about getting out there, supporting great games, encouraging new designers and, in a vague and wanky sense, giving something back.

Graham

I know nothing about Dragonmeet, so I hope it's okay to ask as an aside. is it associated with a particular group or society?

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Yes to Graham's post. I looked at Sponsoring Games Expo but it would be ~£600 on top of the regular stuff for that con. Dragonmeet would be ~£1200. I do think it is achievable though in the longer term if we have 10 strong presences to split it, which I think would be a goal to aim for.

I'm not sure we had a focused message this year at all, which is something we need to work on. The flyers and the programme ad were well-targeted I think. Our confusing mess of people milling about on the booth, and a lack of games/demos was not targeted at all.

David, Dragonmeet can be searched for on Google, and our (many) posts on it can be found by clicking the term at the top of the site, or using this site's Search function. Dragonmeet is currently organised by Cubicle7 entertainment who you have worked for.

The primary reason I asked for this thread is that folks were kinda running away with themselves about what they could do, without a solid idea of the point of the booth and how those things feed in. Put simply it's:

To sell games by showing they're fun to play.

Everything else is secondary to this. Anything that doesn't actively contribute dilutes. It works. Things fall down when we lose track of it. We dropped it a bit this Dragonmeet, I felt, and I was as guilty as anybody.

So some general things, particularly applied to Dragonmeet and Expo style sales cons:

First off. Demos should be running every minute of the day, we pay for those extra tables for a reason: actual play sells games. Demos attract interest and sales better than any banner or poster will. Keep 'em short and sweet so folks who are watching can be roped in when the current one ends. Folks who are doing nothing on the booth should be playing other people's demos, if nothing else than to learn how to run 'em yourself.

We suffer a bit from the "mill around chatting to like-minded folks" syndrome. And that is cool on a personal level, but it clogs the frontage so new folks can't get in and browse. Those folks should be roped into demos too, or politely but firmly told to move on.

Finally, if you can't, or don't want to pitch to people, you really shouldn't be on the booth. Now, I don't mean be an aggressive salesbod by this. I mean being able to talk to random people about what they like, and suggest stuff that we do they may find interesting in a friendly, chatty, approachable manner. If you can't pitch, make sure somebody who can has the right details to do it for you and go do something else instead like run your game.

I'm also in agreement with Graham. Design stuff should be mentioned if it comes up, somebody will tell you if they have a game they're working on (trust me on this), but not the core of the booth.

On the subject of browsers. It's worth noting that if you keep the frontage open, so people can see the unusual for RPG sizes and covers, you will get curiosity which is an "in" to get chatting.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I agree that the stall ought to be about selling (and demonstrating) the games on offer, but it did bring one thing to mind. Many conventions have seminars, lectures and discussion forums these days. That would be an ideal place for things like discussions of RPG design method, the pitfalls of POD printing and distribution and the like. Maybe we should keep an eye out for opportunities to engage in more than just our own stall during conventions? Maybe we could even think about some kind of tournament, if any CE products openly support tournament-style play. I've never been fond of traditional RPGs played in tournament style because it doesn't feel like there ought to be winners or losers, but I've also seen some Indie-style games that most definately do have winners and losers.

Hope I'm not going too far off topic here!

Ash

I think we should consider a little more the consequences of moving a focus onto sales over design. Is there not a way that the two can co-exist? Or one can lead to another?

I see myself very much a member of the CE membership that came of a push to 'open the door' to new members. People in the UK who were designing but had to support network or peer group to associate with. It wasn't quite a 'call for members' but I distinctly remember a feeling that things had changed a little with the group.

I've noticed a number of comments recently about mature games with slowing sales at cons and a number of forward looking comments about the new crop of games which should be released this year. I'm also seeing aspirations to be primary sponsors at conventions and a move to us cementing that primary indie 'brand' at these events.

However to do that we need to stay fresh and relevant and be the 'go to' stall at a con. And that means that we are going to have to have a throughput of new games to stock the stall and create a 'buzz'. Looking at the con-going calendar, a rotation of games annually looks ideal. These are either going to have to come from the sweat of our own brows or through new members.

And thats why I think that we need to nuture the design side of things as well.

Now that said, nothing I have read has specifically said 'ditch design for cold hard cash!!' but I think that it is important to leave that door open for potential new members to catch the CE vibe. Maybe just an understanding that people who are interested can be taken aside and chatted to - or caught up with later? I noticed that the 24-minute games design thing was running - would it be beyond the ken of man to sponsor that?

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I have my doubts about the sponsorship angle. What does it gain us, either as a design community or a marketing group, to sponsor a convention? Are we interested in doing it because of the publicity? Do we really think it would generate £1200 in extra sales for our members? If not, why do it?

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

That should be the default, yes. Design takes care of itself as far as people identifying themselves goes. As soon as you say "we all designed and published them ourselves" people who have even the slightest inclinations that way will pipe up and say so. That's the cue to switch modes, as it were.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

It's definitely important to keep abreast of current trends in gaming, and it's vital that the CE continue to support designers naturally, but I'm not convinced that a convention atmosphere, or more specifically a sales stall in a sales-driven display hall, is the place to recruit or advise new designers. I think if you've got a stall for selling, then that's what you should do. It'd be interesting, though, to broach the idea of some kind of games design symposium as an event, or as a stall in something akin to an 'arts and crafts' area which some conventions have. That said, a lot of cons bundle everything together into one big hall with no differentiation between the two, and in that circumstance it probably doesn't hurt a bit to do both on one stall. I would however prefer to see a distinct definition between the design side and the games / sales side of such a stall. Mix it up too much and you risk becoming neither fish nor fowl instead of a poultry-and-crab medley with garlic dip and a side order of chips. People need to know why we're there and what we're about, but we don't want to send a mixed signal. It's as much in the presentation as the concept.

Ash

My only experience of the CE stall is at conpulsion, so my understanding is limited, but at that con it has always been only a quasi sales stand, because it has wrapped up sales, discussion, pick up games, the Indie track GMs and so forth all in one. It is beside the dealers, but it doesn't come over as just a dealer stand.

Of course it may be very different elsewhere

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Well Piledrivers and Powerbombs would certainly work for a tourney.

Overall I think Matt is right on the money. We need to make sure the booth dosen't get too clogged with chatting to pals. Constant rolling demos should be tried I think, otherwise the tables are sitting empty.

+++
JoE
+++

Prince of Darkness Games
Rock N' Role-Play....

I'm not selling things through CE (yet), but I'm not just a customer. I've been running indie games for years and selling CE games all over the place. So I have opinions.

There are too few new games coming out. CE should release something new at least twice a year. New hotness sells. Buzz sells.

Some of the people on the stall are not good at selling. They're not good at communicating what games are about, or why to buy them. They need some training.

At Dragonmeet 2006, there were too few demos. Demos should run all the time. 1 hour, 2 hour, whatever. Tables should be full.

Many gamers want to design. You should run seminars. Sell materials on how to publish. Or give away pamphlets on how you did what you did. Designers buy games. They make new gamers happen. They come online trying to find people to share the passion with.

Gamers have poor social skills. You guys have better social skills. You should be gently persuading people to try demos. Or come back and try demos. Or consider a seminar. Or find out what they enjoy.

You're friendly people. I don't think the forum is especially friendly. It's broadly helpful. But you haven't had many new people join that weren't connected to a CE person, have you?

There's no regular mailing list, magazine or periodical to keep me reminded who you guys are, and what you do. Doesn't need much, just occasional articles. Malcolm's articles on Columboism and such are the sort of thing that would keep customers' interest bubbling. That slao gives CE more of a 'face' than a forum full of scattered topics.

Brand identity - where is it? A couple of you are well-known. That's useful. Consider matching t-shirts. Sponsorship (as suggested). Seminars with your logo entirely obvious. CE logos on the back of your books. Stickers and badges to give away. Custom dice by the bucketload. It's good that you have the posters and banners at cons, but you need to continue to remind people who you are when away from the booth, gaming elsewhere, and inbetween cons.

That is a most excellent post Joe. I feel I want to respond, but I'll be honest I don't think that this forum or indeed the internet is the right place to do so. The issues involved (What is CE? Does it need to move to a different/the next level?) really are face-to-face ones that should be done around a table with a glass of wine/beer/vodka.

However, I do want to just acknowledge the quality of the post.

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

Cheers, Neil.

There's nothing to stop CE from being the 'household name' that is Mongoose or Pinnacle or Pelgrane. The games that have come out far are certainly of the quality of those bigger names - and plenty eclipse the big guys' work.

But at the moment, I hear of individual game titles or perhaps Contested Ground. Not _Collective Endeavour_.