Folks in RPG land often conflate editing and proofreading. They are related skills, but not always the same.

Proofreading is about making sure the text itself reads well and is stylistically correct. Note that isn't grammatically correct, even within the rules of grammar there are options and approaches that a particular publishing house may chose to take. Little things like consistently using he/she/they or it's or it is. A good proofreader will make sure your book maintains that consistency.

Editing can involve proofreading too, but is generally more concerned with structural elements of your manuscript. Does it communicate the core points? Does it introduce concepts in a logical order? Did you explain something clearly? What does the author mean here and is it clear to somebody else? A good editor will work with you to improve the flow of the text and make sure it communicates well. By necessity that may involve some proofreading too. But it could also involve moving, re-ordering or pulling whole sections.

Now this is further complicated by the fact that there are often multiple stages of editing and structures of the process vary from publisher to publisher.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

As someone who is new to this, what role does editing play in Indie games production? How many people have someone else edit their text for them before publishing?

I know that I can't edit my own text, almost by definition, if I edit I'm really revising (and undoing the good work of the proofreader), but I'd have thought that most Indie authors are not going to have an editor on hand. That makes the process :

write - revise - proofread - layout - proofread - print

rather than

write - revise - edit - proofread - layout - proofread - print

Or am I wrong, and lots of people have editors on hand?

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

I seem to be being moderated again ... sigh

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Well, being Indie you can pretty much chose your own process. That's the joy of it all, your book, your decisions. I cannot recommend having a decent editor enough though.

Here's what I recommend as being a really good process (it's what we used when I worked in publishing):

Initial Draft - your final version of the playested game with revisions included.

Peer review - fellow publishers and gamers, ask them to read it and check what's unclear

First pass edit - editor goes through and makes damn sure review points are addressed or suggests ways to do so.

Redraft - Author addresses those comments.

2nd Edit - Reread and check the revisions haven't inserted new levels of confusion or error. Fix issues.

Proofread - By somebody who has not been associated with the project and who you give a house style sheet.

Layout

Proofread - because layout introduces new problems, especially in chapter markers, sidebars and redrawn elements.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Thanks, great information!

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

From a CE point of view, there are plenty of people here who can help with both editing and proofreading tasks. Gregor does it day to day, as does Andrew. I used to. There's a host of folks willing to read a pre-release version and give useful feedback on the text.

Now you may ask, "won't that cost?" Well yes normally, but since we're all in this together, instead think of skill exchange as a good option. If you can do maps and web stuff, well then, people need those skills too.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

That's a good point, I don't see a lot of that trading of skills here, I guess because most of us are semi-renaissance men (or women), who can do a bit of everything.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

...which might not be popular. I'll state it full-on: please don't get offended, it's just easier than hedging everything I say with "In my opinion".

(In the layout thread, some very useful alternative opinions were raised, so do correct me in the same way if you think I'm wrong.)

We're keen to encourage designers to publish. But, then, we're keen to tell them how many people they need to hire: editors, layout artists, artists.

(Alternatively stated, if we're talking about skill-sharing: we tell them how many additional professionals they need to involve.)

All of this imposes a real burden, whether that's financial or practical or just psychological barriers to publishing: you need an editor, you need an artist.

So, on editing. I think the editing process is helpful. I think that, at the level we're publishing, having an editor isn't necessary.

My favoured editing process (the one I used for Play Unsafe) is:

1. Read it myself.
2. Put it away for a few days.
3. Read it again.
4. Repeat until it's perfect.
5. Send it to five people whose opinion I respect and whose writing I like
6. Incorporate their comments.
7. Return to step 1 until fully satisfied.

This incorporated my proofreading. I probably went through that cycle about three times, over about a month and a half, involving lots of sitting in parks correcting printouts. Eventually those printouts became printouts of the layout, not the text.

When everyone said "It's really good" and "Stop fiddling with it, Graham, it's fine", I went through it more, then published it. I'm very, very happy with the final text.

So, I'd suggest you worry less about editing, as a thing, and more about getting the feedback of people you trust until you're happy the text is ready to release.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I'd never hire an editor. I am saying that:

1. At our level, I'm not convinced that finding a guy to edit is necessary.
2. I'm unconvinced, anyway, that editing is a particular thing that you need a professional for.

If I did hire an editor, it'd be to save me sitting for a month in a park, poring over manuscripts.

Oh, I'm also aware that this may depend how good your English is. I think mine's pretty good. If you know it's a weak point, of course, get someone with good English.

There you go, that'll make me popular. Next week: why artists suck.

Graham

I don't think your post is that controversial. Your process isn't much different than the one I suggested, you just substituted "my friends who can write" for the editor guy.

Did my post come across as "you must get a professional and pay him your soul!?" It was mean't to be more, get somebody to do it and make sure they know how.

That said. Beware of just letting your friends who know the game do your editing. That way lies Shock: version 1, which has problems an external editor would have picked up with ease.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

D'you know what Graham? - No one in the other thread mentioned hiring anyone - but there were loads of self-help suggestions to improve a homemade layout, as seems appropriate to the level you guys are working at. And no one has suggested it here, beyond raising the idea of a skill swap, which seems very sensible.

Where do you feel the pressure to hire people is coming from?

Jon Hodgson
www.jonhodgson.com

I'm allowed to threadjack my own thread for a second, right? *looks around* Good.

I have found that in some circles there is an expected way that things are done. A layout person, an editor, this, that and the other. It can be quite daunting especially when people who do this talk about it as work and I just see that meaning I have to pimp more of my books to break even and not explain to my sole investor (Mrs G) where the money went

As an example (and this might be able to wing its way across the to Paying Artists thread) my artist for Duty & Honour has REFUSED POINT BLANK to allow me to charge him. Even just £10 for a full page. Why? He's adamant that the exposure he might get from the game and the fact that he loves drawing the pictures is enough. Now I've read enough about unscrupulous publishers not giving artists their due that I am guilty - GUILTY ffs - about taking the art! *rolls eyes*

That is, however, other circles. I much prefer the idea of skills sharing and using people who have professional expertise in a field to point to excellent learning resources etc. - the stuff that happens in this circle!

And ... back to the thread!

Neil

Yes, I can see this kind of problem coming about largely from people misunderstanding the role of the editor is to change things. Too often friends, especially good ones, don't like messing around with your work because they feel it's too cruel. To be an editor you need to be a vicious bastard. :D

Ash

I totally agree that having someone else read your text is vitally important. A number of different people (with very different stances) have given me in-depth feedback at various points in the writing of Solipsist, and that has been really important. They were able to do what I never could, point at bits of text and say "david, that bit is piss!" and get me to change it.

But I couldn't imagine, at the low levels of investment and return I envision for Solipsist, paying someone to do that, ye gods no!

Now artists, that is a more difficult matter. I can draw, and draw well, and doing my own art is entirely possible, but sometimes there is something specific I want that I know someone else will be able to draw better, and I am willing to pay for that because I know how hard it is.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Is this the point where I should tout my editing skills? ;)

Really, the crucial thing is this: have a clear and realistic picture of your own ability to produce good, error-free work and then take the necessary steps to get you from there to a good standard of finished product.

Personally, I'm lucky enough to be able to produce stuff that's pretty clean to start with, and to self-edit pretty effectively. Then I get a few people to give it a look over on an informal basis, in case there's any glaring stupid in it. You (the hypothetical reader of this post) might have brilliant ideas and be able to turn a piece around faster than I do, but have a real weakness for spelling. Then your needs would be different.

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

Editing involves many different tasks and you can easily have them done by various different people. An Editor may...

* proof-read for spelling and grammar
* copy-edit for style and consistency
* suggest improvements to the text
* suggest improvements to the content
* order the text and content
* stat up characters or check stat blocks

At work we have moved from being "desk editors" or some other similar titles into being "content managers". The job involves a lot of liaising with printers, typesetters, marketers, etc. so I see it as being quite close to what any self-publishing creator does, really.

I'm not talking so much about the pressure to hire an editor.

It's more the tendency to treat editing as a specialised skill that needs a trained professional.

It's part of a wider worry, to tangent a little. In indie publishing, we've gone some way towards working with artists, designers, editors and so on. This is great.

However, in the process, I worry that we imply that it's necessary to use one of each of these guys to publish a book.

Whereas, really, many of those things we can do ourselves. For new authors, I think that's what we should be encouraging them to do, rather than worry about editing, layout and so on as a formal thing.

Graham

Yes, like Joe did for Contenders, using clip / archive art for all of the illustrations certainly avoided the need for an artist, and it still looks good in my book.

I got someone else to proofread for me, because I know I am very very bad at it (mostly due to being dyslexic), but I am sure a fair number of people could do it themselves (though it is disproportionally hard to sport your own mistakes).

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

I'll take it to a new thread. Sorry, Neil. Let's talk about editing in game design, here.

Graham