We had high tea as our group scene and one-by-one we introduced ourselves to the group.

Then we headed off for our Protagonist and Target scenes. Is there any direction (I'm at work and can't remember the wording in the text) on who rolls the dice? We went with the person who owned the Influence rolling their own dice, i.e. the protagonist or target only roll their own dice, anyone aiding them rolls the dice being aided.

The scenes disturbed the influence up and down, and the rules on economy seemed solid in play. Again we found the tie-breakers clear and intuitive.

One slight issue was with the black and white dice. I liked the new wheels, but the dice oscillated around one side of the wheel or the other.

We had a few thoughts about this that I captured at the end. Basically what elements are the dice bringing in? Before the black was negative and the white positive, whereas now they are both greyer. Duplicity appears on both wheels and Lasantha really felt that we were all duplicitous all the time, so maybe it is redundant? Another idea was what if the wheel is shared but the black and white dice go in opposite directions (where they will cross at different points depending on when they are brought in and succeed). Finally, Liam wondered if the winner of a roll could decide what direction to progress the dice in (which would affect the following scenes of other players obviously)?

So, yeah, the dice were a bit different from before and do something slightly different in the fiction, while being useful as before as extra dice in the mechanics. I felt my character was grovelling and so on all the time as I sought out the dice.

After we did a whole round of Act 1 we went to the murder (to save time really). We'd also estbalished our characters strongly by this point through these scenes.

Oh, on group scenes we had a bit of option paralysis given that it was so open for scenes. Maybe a list of "this is the opening scene" needs hardcoded in, with the acknowledgement that you can drift this if the group has a strong sense of a different scene?

Anyway, we put the names in a hat and Edwin bit the dust. I think I wanted it to be Carol, but Edwin was drawn out the hat by a passer by. I really like that this isn't a popular vote, and it is just perfect. Liam told us where and when Edwin died and the mystery of Act 2 began.

(More later...)

...Gregor, on your complaints, can you let me know how serious they are? Which ones are "This caused us major irritation" and which are "I'd like this to be different"?

When you say "...to save time, really", is that because you were short of time or because you weren't enjoying the game?

Graham

My comment was that you could probably release "A need to kill" now and people would buy, play and enjoy it. The question is how much you want to tweak it to be amazing.

The people being lost as to where to start group scenes seemed a problem. Externally you could see people being unsure and hesitant. I almost wonder if something like the Roach's series of events is needed for group scenes.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

The game is totally playable at the moment and certainly enjoyable. You could sell it in almost its current form. Think of anything I bring up as "this seemed slightly less elegant", or "I'd have maybe preferred..." or "maybe you should think about this thing".

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The three things I put "Hmm, Graham needs to look at this" notes against were...

...(1) the bit on Influence Scenes, where the Target wins and the Protagonist only has 1 Influence. Nothing changes at the moment, which is maybe the way it has to be. I wondered if the Target could gain one in that case?

...(2) in Act 2 at the bit where you roll dice to determine the winner of Mystery Scenes it says "Target rolls...", "Protagonist rolls..." and "Everyone else rolls..." and I wondered what the Detective did. It would be helpful for it to be explicitly bulleted that he rolls his Detective dice (just because they bulleted lists were otherwise comprehensive and I came to rely upon them!)

...(3) how do the Detective's Mystery Scenes work? I got how he could swan into other people's and this worked great, but I was a bit confused at rolling against the Detective, so he effectively became an automatic levelling machine, dragging his defenceless victims down.
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We started quite late in the afternoon and the hall closed at 5, so time meant we wouldn't get a whole game in (though we'd dearly have loved to). Lasantha, in particular, really wanted to play it so we were all happy trying a bit of each part of the game.

Anyway, at the end of 1 round of Act 1...

Carol's Influences were the same.
Edwin's Influence over The Colonel had risen to 3 (purely an increase).
Winston's Influence over Carol had dropped to 2 and his Influence over Edwin had risen to 2 (a dice had moved here).
The Colonel's Influence over Carol had moved to 3.

Oh, on the Colonel's character sheet his Influence over Carol moves back down to 2 and his Influence over Edwin drops to 1, but I'm thinking this might be from Act 2...

Oh, the crossing off on non-Edwin realtionships and just playing on with the Carol-Edwin, etc. ones was OK... but maybe I'd have preferred a Death Certificate style sheet for the victim where we added our existing relationships with him/her on to it. That sheet could have room for 3, 4 or 5 other characters and all the "Secretly..." to "Full Horror..." stuff.

In Act 2 we all just did Mystery Scenes and tried to make each other's relationships worse. I think we felt (and I may be projecting here) that we didn't want to fall further behind moving Influence when we could be sinking our reputations!

What is the outcome if a Mystery Scene is failed? (Perhaps Influence could be adjusted if Influence scenes are not being used? -- But I say that as an interested observer, I don't know the answer)

So, anyway, in Act 2 the relationships went as follows...

Relationship between ... Edwin and Winston ... is that ... Winston pays Edwin to beat him ... and secretly ... gets buggered by him too ...

Relationship between ... Edwin and Colonel ... is that ... they had a drunken fling during the Great War ... and secretly ... continued after the War until death ...

Carol didn't get worse even with the Detective's interference and picking on her during the Colonel's scene... but if the Detective then has his own scene how does Carol roll dice against him? Only by claiming the White or Black dice? Would we as rivals hold those dice back so she had none to roll? What if you just roll a flat 1 die against the Detective?

In any case we ruled that the Colonel and his son Winston would eventually have reasons to murder. And we went on to the Denouement.

The Detective outlined the case and we made our pleas, everyone dog piled against Winston and I rolled crap. I was led away in handcuffs revealed as the murderer. Really great endgame. I love it. I like the tie result too.

Final notes I scribbled were... a default list of scenes (or even a table to roll on ... it worked well for us in Lacuna!) and maybe a list of names to help those struggling (again, a table to roll on might be useful for those needing help).

The Black and White dice chart had some scribbles on it too. The ones we didn't like as much were Duplicity and Ruin on the White track, and we felt that although Desperation and Grovelling were close they were not the same. On the Black track maybe have Abuse rather than Domination? Violence rather than bloodletting? Duplicity and Supercilliousness came up in play and we were more keen for the dice to be on the other side of the wheel. Anyway, maybe only 4 on the wheel with Hatred, Abuse, Violence and (Wanton) Destruction?

We would happily play with the track as is though, but we did find we got ping-pong between Hatred and Duplicity on Black and Desperation, Grovelling and Pain on White. (I guess once it moved in one direction it kind of stayed on that side of the wheel for us.)

We did find we wanted the White and Black dice so we played to them to get them in.

All in all, I think this is almost done, Graham. When can I buy it?

This is superb. Thank you.

Let me try one of those line-by-line reply things.

(1) the bit on Influence Scenes, where the Target wins and the Protagonist only has 1 Influence. Nothing changes at the moment, which is maybe the way it has to be. I wondered if the Target could gain one in that case?

Could do, but it'd rather stack things up against the Protagonist. I'll keep an eye on it and see if it seems odd in play.

...(2) in Act 2 at the bit where you roll dice to determine the winner of Mystery Scenes it says "Target rolls...", "Protagonist rolls..." and "Everyone else rolls..." and I wondered what the Detective did.

He gets the tea.

Yes, he rolls too.

...(3) how do the Detective's Mystery Scenes work? I got how he could swan into other people's and this worked great, but I was a bit confused at rolling against the Detective, so he effectively became an automatic levelling machine, dragging his defenceless victims down.

Pretty much. You need to beg for that White Die if you want a chance. Is that bad?

In Act 2 we all just did Mystery Scenes and tried to make each other's relationships worse. I think we felt (and I may be projecting here) that we didn't want to fall further behind moving Influence when we could be sinking our reputations!

Yes. We played like that too. I have a feeling, though, that there's another way to play, where you just frame Influence Scenes throughout. (If there's not, I'll make Influence more powerful so there is.)

After all, in a four-player game, if you're not killed, there's a 66% you'll be in the final two anyway. Why not accept you'll be one of the two suspects in the denouement, but gear yourself up to win it?

What is the outcome if a Mystery Scene is failed?

It just fails. Nothing else makes sense, really, and it unbalances the game if it affects Influence.

Carol didn't get worse even with the Detective's interference and picking on her during the Colonel's scene... but if the Detective then has his own scene how does Carol roll dice against him? Only by claiming the White or Black dice?

Yes.

Would we as rivals hold those dice back so she had none to roll?

No. You act like gentleman and acknowledge her good play. You never withhold the Black and White dice for tactical reasons.

What if you just roll a flat 1 die against the Detective?

Life's a fucker, isn't it? The Detective is meant to be pretty powerful, once he gets going.

Thank you, that's very useful, and more points to respond to yet.

I'll clarify all those answers in the rules. Any of them seem deeply unsatisfactory?

Graham

These are a great idea, but the current implementation seems to cause them to hover permanently around two options (since it's fail one way, succedd the other).

I think the old version where it escalated was somehow more satisfying, as you never got stuck in a rut with them. And as Gregor pointed out, there's less differentiation between the two scales now.

My suggestion was that you combine the best bits of both into one scale, and start both dice at the top, but have one move clockwise on success and the other move anti-clockwise.

-Matt

Realms Publishing

We went with the person who owned the Influence rolling their own dice, i.e. the protagonist or target only roll their own dice, anyone aiding them rolls the dice being aided.

That's right. So everyone at the table rolls dice.

On the 30 red dice thing: I can definitely put that, if you don't have 30 dice, mark dice down on sheets instead. (I assume everyone's got a block of Chessex small dice.)

We had a few thoughts about this that I captured at the end. Basically what elements are the dice bringing in?

The black die makes you high-status (and nasty), the white die makes you low status.

Duplicity appears on both wheels and Lasantha really felt that we were all duplicitous all the time, so maybe it is redundant?

Duplicity on the White Die Wheel is a mistake! It should be Envy. You may be right that it's superfluous on the Black Die Wheel too. I'll keep an eye on it.

Another idea was what if the wheel is shared but the black and white dice go in opposite directions

No, no...the Black always needs to be high status, the White low.

Finally, Liam wondered if the winner of a roll could decide what direction to progress the dice in (which would affect the following scenes of other players obviously)?

What, so I solve the problem of the die getting stuck, and give players another way to screw each other over? What a fantastic idea. I owe Liam a pint.

I felt my character was grovelling and so on all the time as I sought out the dice.

I'm really glad! That's the idea! You need to lower your status to get the most powerful die. Was it a problem?

Oh, on group scenes we had a bit of option paralysis given that it was so open for scenes.

I think I need a random table. Perhaps a random table for the weather, too. I like random tables.

That's really useful stuff. Thanks very much for all your help with this.

Graham

Does the answer above answer your question? Using the same scale isn't something I want to do, but I will use Liam's idea.

Graham

Ah, right. Then this maybe isn't communicated clearly enough (or we were just confused by the duplicity thing). Worth noting for future playtests anyway.

Given it's about status, maybe who controls the movement of the dice should be dependent on the dice in question. Ie loser moves the low status die, winner moves the high status one. Or visa-versa?

-Matt

Realms Publishing

I'm really satisfied with all those answers.

Adam Kelly gets a cookie too, since he said the Black Die was high status and the White ie was low status. (Foolish me with my counter-argument to that by saying Duplicty was on both wheels!)

Envy sounds right, and yes my character did get lower and lower in status as I grovelled and begged. Funnily it was Carol's high status schemer who ruled the roost in teh game (maybe it says something about our expectations of Stately Home Life). It worked well.

Oh, I'm now the proud owner of a box of 36 small red d6s which I bought at WarpCon. And a random weather table might not actually be too out there either.

And I think the first person to get rammed into the Denouement will work on their Influence. If it were me I'd maybe even roll against the person I expect not to be in the denouement. I'd be aiming to lose so I can move a die from them on to the sod I'm betting will be up against me...

Just one last thing, can the Detective claim the black and white dice. I can't remember. Given the status implications should he be able to grab none, one or the other or both?

The Detective's above it all. He doesn't need to grovel or threaten.

I wonder about that mystery scene and whether I should give the Target more of a chance.

Graham