Do you mean as a general concept, as a route to getting published or a review of their print quality?

A lot of people are (rightfully) worried about the quality of print available from Mongoose's own offices, especially with the glaring errors that occurred during the printing of Cthulhu Tech. That said, the subject has been pretty comprehensively covered elsewhere already so let's not delve too deeply into it. I'm more interested in what people think of the concept, how it compares as a route to being published, and how fair it is to the author.

Ash

Well, for anyone who chooses to publish through Flaming Cobra they would be mad to do so if they didn't think the deal was fair. There is a business arrangement there -- Mongoose don't run it as a charity and they, for sure, want to make profit out of your ideas. Equally they will give books like CthulhuTech a wider distribution (and marketing) than they would get on their own, and so increased sales/income. They also make the books into looking something more like a regular Mongoose RPG.

For me, I wouldn't want to do that. (And equally I'm sure I'm not on their radar, so the point is moot.)

It's worth noting that Mongoose wanted to publish Dogs in the Vineyard through Flaming Cobra and Vincent Baker declined. He did make a point of saying he thought the numbers were fair and that the contact from Mongoose was professional. Looking at his own sales and what he wants to do with Dogs led Vincent to choose to stay publishing through Lumpley Games.

So, I think they are an option if you want to publish your game somehow -- a sort of half-way house to having someone else fully publish your idea. I have no idea about the specific financials or other arrangements.

I wonder how they select their games?

See, if I suggested they publish my game, they'd tell me where to go.

So they're presumably looking for people with some sort of track record, but not so well-reputed they can make it on their own. Which is an interesting halfway house.

You know, I think the ideal candidates are probably people like Gregor and Andrew, he says mischievously.

Graham

My guess on what they're looking for is that they either want Indie icons (hence Dogs in the Vineyard), well-known authors, or books that look so darn flash that they're practically mainstream anyway. They're very open at looking at new ideas, and to their credit you usually get a timely response to submissions and queries, but I can't say I think there's much likelihood of the more out-there concepts making it to the 'Cobra.

I looked at trying 'Cobra when it first began, and I think I may still have an information sheet regarding the financial side of the deal somewhere on my computer. I should have posted the information with the initial post I guess. I'll try and dig it out and post the details here if I can.

Ash

[I've moved this to Publishing. It was in Actual Play for some reason. As ever, if you think that was uncalled for, post something in Administration.]

My own opinion on Flaming Cobra is pretty simple.

I don't fucking care.

As a publisher, I don't want to publish through someone else. Full Stop. I definitely don't want to publish trough Mongoose.

As a consumer, they offer me nothing I want. Chances are they never will. Even if they did, I'd have reservations about buying from them given the aforementioned print quality issues.

As an observer, I don't see how publishing someone else's work qualifies as "indie". I've yet to see a definition of "indie" which could conceivably include Mongoose, whatever their marketing department says.

I wish the people who wish to take this route to publish their works the best of luck. One more option and one more publisher in the market isn't a bad thing.

It shouldn't have been, I know I set the drop-down box to publishing when I posted the topic! Thanks for moving it, I wonder why that happened?

(By the way, at the risk of another semantic thread about Indie, think about it this way: with FC, Mongoose are acting in much the same capacity as Lulu by doing the printing, while passing on a percentage of profits to the owners. They're acting as an imprint and fulfilment house in effect, not a true publisher. The only real difference is that they vet the products. OK they do publish their own stuff as well, but I don't think this disqualifies them from also acting as a 'printer partner' to other people. I'd suspect the idea arose when they were thinking of buying their own equipment and the question was asked "What if we've not enough stuff to print on it?" An idle machine is a machine wasting money, after all. Or that's how a lot of similar businesses see it anyway. Always keep the machines, and the staff, as busy as possible or you're losing potential money.)

Ash

I see Mongoose as a bit of a paradox. They have, in my opinion, got a lot of bad press about their products and their proliferation of supplements etc. and yes, print quality. However they are undoubtedly a major hobby presence and from their 'State of Mongoose' address they obviously have grand plans for the next couple of years - plans which knowing their track record they can probably realise.

If you look at the way that their products are accepted and viewed it really does seem tempting (assuming the numbers are correct). Its not so much the printing costs or convenience that would be the thing - the marketing alongside their products would be the kicker. If you look at the success of 'Victory At Sea' - an admittedly niche product by them - and then look at the tiny niche that say, Duty & Honour could inhabit, it's a very tempting prospect.

For every person who views Mongoose as a mediocre sweatshop flooding the shelves with unviable product there seem to be two who view them as producers of quality RPGs with sustained and regular support who have revitalised a number of older properties.

Its a numbers game - given their financial situation would your game be better placed in association with Mongoose or not, if money is your final object?

Its a very interesting question and one I had never considered before!

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I totally agree there, Monsieur Gow. It's one of the reasons why I have such mixed feelings about the Cobra myself. At the moment I'm tending towards the stance that Mongoose, for all their success, are still only human and are going to make mistakes. I only hope they can get themselves sorted out as soon as possible.

Still can't find those facts and figures I thought I had, damnit. I may see if I can't grab someone from Mongoose in the morning, I've been meaning to talk to them regarding the new Traveller anyway, maybe I'll be able to get a bit more info out of them.

Ash

If I were to publish through Flaming Cobra I'd have to ask myself what I'd be getting for them taking their cut.

Is it something that I can't, or won't, do myself?

Will they do some things worse than I would do them myself? F'rex, the stupid Mongoose house "style point" about two spaces after a full stop, which frankly deserves to have them chucked out the back of a bin motor in Possil and get them stabbed. Or maybe I care about typography and design too much?

Never say never, but unless they were effectively a distributor for me I can't see me doing it. (And why would I put my financial eggs in their basket when I could control my own risk by doing it myself?)

How much creative control I would cede would be a critical point for me personally.

It's a bit old-fashioned, really dates back to the typewriter as that's how we were tought to type when I was at school, but I wouldn't call it a cardinal sin of layout. With some fonts it might actually help. Wouldn't call it a necessity either though. Anyhoo, that's by the by.

I don't believe Mongoose ask for creative control over submissions to Flaming Cobra (though I can't be certain of this naturally as I asked way back before they even started the scheme and things may have changed.) Naturally they reserve the right of refusal, which is fair enough.

Advantages? The main ones I'd say are:
1) No personal outlay. Even if you print POD you'll have some bills before you see returns if you're distributing through traditional models.

2) It's Mongoose. Fans of mongoose will react more favourably to it, and even people who aren't especially fond of them will at least recognise that they are a respected company in the industry.

3) No-hassle distribution and fulfilment. God I hate dealing with distro and fulfilment!

Disadvantages, outside of the mentioned printing problems, I guess you'd be getting up the nose of Mongoose-haters (don't know how many of these there are) and of course the big one: they take a cut. Quite a large cut if memory serves.

Any others?

Ash

The two-spaces-after-a-full-stop's gone, Gregor.

The other main disadvantage, at the moment, is the state of the printing press. A lot of the early books had problems with binding; this has apparently been solved, but you'd still want to keep a close eye on it.

Supercool!

Thanks for that info Gar, and see you tomorrow (err, today).

Maybe Mongoose fans will get you more customers, I can see that. People who don't like Mongoose recognise them as a respected company? Rubbish. Something with the Mongoose label on turns me off now (I used to buy some things when the likes of Ian Sturrock was writing for them). I know plenty of others that don't touch their product either, print issues aside, there's little to no quality contol of the content, zero editting etc.

Mongoose = poor quality in a lot of people's minds.

I know of some folk who buy things in spite of it being Mongoose and fully expecting it to be a bit shoddy, but they love Slaine or Eternal Champion for example and hope for the best.

So, I agree that Mongoose has its fans and you're likely to reach that fan base, but to say that others in the gaming world have some sort of grudging respect for Mongoose and view their products as professional in spite of themselves is somewhat disingenuous. I know that's no exactly what you said, but its how it read to me, sorry if I'm misrepresenting your views.

Who the funk are Lumpley Games? Are they professional and well recognised? Not a Scooby. Bought DitV though. If it was Dogs, from Flaming Cobra (a branch of Mongoose(TM)) my cash would have been spent on gin instead.

Gazakhstan

Let me reword that slightly as I think you took my meaning slightly wrong. I didn't say people who don't like Mongoose, I said people who weren't especially fond, which isn't really the same thing. Let's change that to 'People who are indifferent towards Mongoose' - that should clear it up. Note that I did also mention that you'd "get up the nose of Mongoose haters." I had hoped this would distinguish between the two stances, but never mind!

Like them or not, Mongoose is a big company and there's a certain mindset who recognise and respect that, some even on a subconscious level.

Ash

I wasn't going to bring this into the discussion, but since it's been mentioned by Gregor, I'll just grab my copy of Cthulhu Tech as an example of current printing from Mongoose.

The binding looks OK. Hard to tell until the pages fall out, but I've not heard any stories of this happening yet.

The problems are in the markup and printing. Firstly, if you see the cover of the book you'll notice that there is a thin white strip down the extreme edge of the outer side borders of the cover. It looks to me like they've neglected to bleed the artwork off the left and right hand sides. This could easily have been fixed by resizing the artwork; the distortion would have been so small as to be unnoticeable. Secondly and more glaringly the interior pages have been improperly cut, leaving a large portion of the page borders missing. Only the right hand pages are numbered, but I can't be sure whether this is a design choice or a printing error. Either the markup has been set to extend from one corner of the page instead of being in the dead centre as it should be, or the pages are smaller than expected (possibly because the cover of a hardback overlaps its interior pages by a few millimetres.) These are errors that should not be happening if the pages are properly marked up and the guy at the guillotine knows what he is doing, and even if they do they certainly shouldn't be repeated in quantities of 200 and released onto the streets!

Ash

For me, Mongoose is one of them love 'em or hate 'em things - people I've played with tend to think they're doing a good thing or are a bunch of two headed facist lizards, its rare to get the middle ground. Like a lot of folks attitudes to Games Workshop for example.

I don't see being a big company as automatically being a good thing I think is what I've saying, not necessarily an advantage in the game-selling world. Especially if, their printing, editting, layout etc are all sub-par and what's more, reknowned for it.

And to make Gregor love me all the more, you'll note I use two spaces after a full stop like I was taught in word processing in sixth form (circa 1886). Breaking the law, breaking the law...

Oh no, it's certainly not always an advantage in the eyes of the public, but it can be. It would be interesting to know just how people really do think about Mongoose at the moment, but short of running a poll somewhere (which I am loathe to do in case people think I'm intentionally Mongoose-bashing) I can't think of a way to ascertain just how popular they are these days.

Another potential problem with public opinion is that big companies, for right or for wrong, make easy targets when pointing fingers. When you're more visible, you're more open to people making snap judgements and exaggerations.

On the other side of the coin, I just remembered another problem with Mongoose's recent printing of Cthulhu Tech. I had to wait three weeks for a copy because all of the initial batch that was sent out to my local gaming shop were bent like bananas and they couldn't sell them.

Ash

I think, as Forged game designers, we often dismiss things like this out of hand. (We dismiss anything but self-publishing out of hand).

But it actually makes a lot of sense, for the right game designer and the right game. Publishing through someone like Mongoose could actually make a game better, with some editorial and design direction.

Graham

Assuming they do either ;) I'm not too encouraged by their lack of quality control at the moment. You're right though, it would have to be precisely the right kind of game.

Ash

Use Mongoose if a majority of the following are true:

- you do the sums and the deal is good
- you haven't got print / layout / editing contacts of your own or don't want the hassle
- your game suits the gameshop/distro/D20 audience that they target
- your don't mind handing certain business decisions to other people
- you don't mind their print quality
- they want your game in the first place

Anything I missed?

-Matt

Realms Publishing

Well, Mongoose are currently veering wildly away from D20 by rehashing their properties to match either RuneQuest for fantasy products or the new Traveller (due out Feb) for sci-fi, so D20 may not be as accurate as once it was. They're certainly more for the mainstream approach than what is commonly perceived as the Indie approach though, so it's not far out. It's probably not a bad decision if you're planning on supporting RQ or Traveller. Otherwise, I'd say that summation was pretty accurate. Can anyone think of any other salient points?

Ash

Sounds about right.

G

If someone was taking the Cobra route, it'd be worth examining what you get in this area, given that for their staff writers for example, the direction they get on what to write is the title of a book (I have first hand accounts of this being the case), and also that editting is extremely minimal for their own products, let alone one that they are going to publish.

Hi guys,

Must check back here more often - you chaps are active!

Anyway, the print quality issues we experienced last year are now (thankfully) behind us. We tried an experiment by printing in-house that, unfortunately, did not work out. All our printing is now down by professional third party printers based in the US, with a quality to match anything else in the market.

Have a look at a copy of Traveller, and you will see what I mean. . .

Don't presume that at all - we approached Wildfire almost sight unseen. We had seen a couple of pieces of artwork, and knew the general idea. That was enough to convince us that CTech had marketability written all over it.

Don't be put off if you are not 'known'. A good idea and execution can go a very, very long way.

Been meaning to give Vincent another shout - we now operate FC on a completely different business model that allows people to start earning profits immediatly, rather than having a 'watershed,' which is what Mr Baker was offered.

So far as I can recall, we have never, ever used the term 'indie' to describe what we do with FC.

As far as we are concerned, the people we work with are professionals, even if they have yet to make the leap to full-time, and this is how we portray them to our customers.

You are half right here - the genesis of FC was _exactly_ as you describe. However, though we have now moved away from printing in-house, the sturcture of FC still remains viable for us. From a purely personal point of view (and the reason I am surfacing here), I would like to get more Brits into the mix. This country is, quite simply, the best in the world for creative ideas, and we have the potential to kick international butt with hobby games.

We are presenting an opportunity to fly the flag at a strong second tier level with RPGs. . .

Well, this is a fair comment.

On the one hand, we have produced nearasdammit 400-odd titles. Are there mistakes in some of those? Well, yes - as you say, we are only human. However, the vast, vast majority are of an extremely high quality, and our main customer base knows this.

Being candid for a moment, our main issue in this regard stems from just one release - the first Conan rulebook. For reasons best left unsaid, this book was not all it could be - however, we immediatly instituted new editorial systems (what worked for a 2-person company broke down with 15 - sounds obvious, but wait until you get that large, and then see what problems _you_ have :)), and started knocking the ball out of the park again. Recently, we have had some issues on the miniatures side (and we haven't been alone there - the miniatures market may look _very_ different in 12 month's time), and we are readjusting.

The point is that, like anyone else, we learn from mistakes. The value to FC partners is that we can help them avoid those mistakes. We know exactly how things can go wrong and, knowing that, avoid the pitfalls.