Neil,

What software is the current version in? Because if you're using Word (or similar) you can just set the page size to A5 and get a rough impression of the length. Then you need to add a bit for whitespace and artwork and whatever. then you need to add a fifth to that for the extra 12 pages you think you'll probably need.

Also, I think you might want to use a think about a bigger font. I like 12 point, but then I'm weird. thing is, at this stage, you're really only looking for a ball park figure right?

Also,

Exactly what format are you looking at? A5? If you need a lot of diagrams, you might want to reconsider and look at a slightly larger page size.

I also think that if a book goes over 120 pages, you might want to look at a bigger page size.

Bear in mind that Lulu (for example) can only do certain sizes. They can't do what Americans call Digest (the size that PtA and DitV are) for example. Something to bear in mind if you ever want the option of offering the game on Lulu.

Yeah - my tolerance for small fonts drives my wife insane. I will comfortably print things out in 4 or 5pt to read at home to save paper. I was going to increase the font size a bit.

I'll have a play about in word and see what I can see.

Thanks
N.

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

Also, set the page borders to 1.5cm. That's close enough to what you'll be looking at (assuming you don't want some crazy-big ornate border like some games have).

Not wanting to sound contrary for the sake of it, but I detest large font sizes in small press books. Size nine or ten for the body text is just fine, size eleven is starting to stretch it a little, and anything larger than that makes me instantly feel as if the author is just trying to pad the book out to make it longer and more saleable at a higher price. I usually stick to size 10 Garamond myself.

As for page size conversion, well it will vary considerably depending on a number of factors (particularly margins and illustrations!) The easiest thing to do for an approximation (other than just trying it) is to work out the ratio of printable areas, then use that as a multiplier for the page number, then add a percentage on to represent illustrations. Different people have different preferences for what percentage of a book should be illustrations, I usually say about %10 (one full-page illustration or part thereof per ten of text).

So, if your original size is A4 with three-quarter-inch margins, that's a total usable area of 6.77 x 10.19 = 68.99 square inches. Your new size let's say is A5 with three-quarter-inch margins so 4.33 x 6.77 = 29.31 square inches, that's a ratio of 1:2.35, so a 60 page book would swell to around 141 pages in total, plus whatever you decide for illustrations. Note that this is an extremely approximate calculation (+/-10% at least) and the result is usually a good deal larger than the actual amount. I tested it on a 24-page document, which swelled to 51 pages rather than the predicted 56, for example. The easiest thing to do is simply to try it out.

Ash

I would say 11 point for me, I don't think I'd want to read a game all set in 9 point. Games get read at the table, with one side weighted down under notes, in poor lighting, that sort of thing. They can't afford a requirement for good eyesight and plentiful lighting.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

In a way this also puts the argument for using larger page sizes too, since it's much more difficult to keep a tightly-bound novel-sized book open at the right page than it is a full A4 / letter sized one. From a personal perspective though, I make more use of post-it-note bookmarks than I do of weighting the pages down.

9 point *is* a little small in most fonts, but it's fine if you're using Arial. 10pt is my favourite.

Ash

Small format books also don't go well on my gaming bookshelves, which are full of big A4 hardbacks and the like. Little pamphlet games get lost.

Of course some page counts are just too small to justify A4. Solispist for example is currently about 40 sides of A4 (it still needs an index, title page, contents, character sheet, example characters and the like), which couldn't really work as something larger than A5 I think.

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

I'm usually a 10pt man when I am printing anything for anyone else to read. Thats what I would be thinking about anyway.

As for book size, well thats a topic of hot debate in my group. There are a couple of players who are definitely in the 'all rpgs should be D&D/WoD/Rifts sized books' whilst I am more of the 'You have a car! I need books I can carry in my overcoat pocket/bookbag' camp.

If I was being very canny and if the process allowed it, I should really something around the same size as those Osprey 'Uniforms of the XXX Army' books as this is a familiar sized text for the grogna... sorry, potential customers from outside the hobby.

Lots to think about...!

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

I think that the optimal thickness of an RPG book is 7-15 mm.

If your book is looking thinner than that, your page size might want to be smaller. If it's thicker than that, your page size might want to be bigger, unless it's already A4 in which case you've topped out.

This seems to equate to 48 pages minimum and 128 pages maximum. It's pure aesthetics mind you, this has no scientific basis or anything. I get on fine with books like Burning Empires (which is 650 ish pages at digest size) and the new Earthdawn books (which are like, 512 pages of A4 each!). I also have a copy of Metabarons, which is some crazy size which is about half as big again as A4. Stunning looking book, which really doesn't fit on my shelf properly.

Fuck, I've spent far too long thinking about this.

I also have a bugbear about books which are not standard sizes (especially landscape) and PDFs which aren't formatted for printing on A4 or letter, but that's for another day...

(incidentally Neil, roughly how many pages did you end up with?)

Oh yes, that would be perfect! Then you could get sold at wargaming conventions

http://www.solipsist-rpg.com/

Well, my copy of Word at work is playing silly buggers but when it finally condescended to work properly it was around 100 pages in total. However there is art and other stuff to go in there, so probably looking at the magic 120 pages.

Neil

And after some snuffling around I discovered that the Osprey size is never quite standard but is usually as near as damn it the 10x7' offered on the quick calculator at Fidlar Doubleday. Which is great because I can then get a ballpark figure for the game on a number of prints and page numberings and know what to aim for.

Thanks for all the help guys. Just being able to think around an issue like this 'in the open' really helps.

Neil

Take the King's shilling at http://www.omnihedron.co.uk/dutyandhonour/

Another way to achieve a suitable thickness that doesn't involve the number or size of pages is to increase the weight of the paper stock it is printed on. Heavier paper also (in general) gives a higher quality of print, especially if you're able to get coated or gloss finish pages. Of course this increases the cost of printing, but then so would having more pages anyway so that's no great problem, especially if the added thickness just about gets you a larger size of page. The major problem really would be finding a printer who is willing to use the heavier stocks.

Ash

I've been working on the basis that Digest is 6x9 inches, and Lulu most certainly does that.

Whatever it's called, that's probably the size to look at for a small/press indy game with a small word count.

Tim Gray
Silver Branch Games
www.silverbranch.co.uk

Digest Size is technically 5.5 x 8.25 inches in size, but commonly it's used to refre to 5.5 x 8.5 (i.e. half letter).

6 x 9 is that bit bigger and is another common size for games. I think I prefer the slightly smaller 5.5 x 8.5, personally.

What he said.

I like Digest better than 6 x 9, but like I said, Lulu doesn't offer that.

Scrivener, which is a great writing package for Mac OS X, uses a default of 350 words and/or a maximum of 54 lines per page for a typical paperback book. That's not far off the size of an A5 publication.

Cheers,

---
Dom Mooney
http://www.bits.org.uk/
http://www.powerprojection.net/

You can get quotes so quickly these days, either of the internet with web calculators or through the speedy replies of good printers that I think there's no reason to be overly fussed with an exact number.

For anyone curious of the costs just plug in the numbers 48, 72, 96 and 112 pages into the calculators and get some rough numbers.

The only time I worry about the exact number is when I have the layout provisionally done. Then I figure out final layout and final book length. That's when I need to know for sure to get the spine width and the costs finalized.

Before then, it's not that big of a deal, really. (Unless you're soliciting the info into distro 6 months in advance, f'rex.)